Live data from Hacker News

Books and lectures don't work

andymatuschak.org

81–90 of 162 posts

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#81
post #51
post #30

Try only learning things with books for 4 months and then tell me it doesn't work. I tend to notice that learning from books get a lot harder if I allow my brain to be flooded with whatever chemicals are released when I watch youtube or game of thrones. If I avoid those for a while, and avoid sugar etc, and if I work out every day and get enough nutrients etc, then my ability to learn via books is no trouble at all.…

Do you feel like this is ultimately related to the medium or to the content as well? Intuitively new media won't have as much (good quality) content as books, so that might be the main issue here.

I'm not the parent but if I had to guess, I'd say it's the way new media seems to erode our ability to concentrate for long periods of time. YouTube et al provide us with endless stimulation such that we never allow ourselves to get bored anymore. Then, if we're doing something we may find tedious and difficult (say, grinding problems from a math textbook) then we can't handle the lack of stimulation and get restless as a consequence.

Taking a break from all of that stimulation is a good way to quiet our minds and relearn how to focus.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#82

For both the main problem is that there comes a point where you lose track of what's happening. I think that the main problem with lectures is that each feels very simple during the intro and very complicated towards the end. Generally there's some steps that you just missed. It's hard to pause the lecture and go back. Each additional minute of being lost then feels like a waste of time. The audience is generally at…

I absolutely agree about lectures, _when they try to teach a textbook_.

If the lecturer discusses a topic on the premise that their audience has already read , it's a much better experience for all involved, in my experience.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#83
The article does an effective thing by creating a strong interest in knowing how the author will justify himself for some of the claims he's made—and it doesn't disappoint: if you give it a chance, it gives answers to the controversies.

This is one variation of an important pedagogical concept called 'motivation'. And, ironically, after reading the article, my main takeaway was that while I appreciate the main line of thinking behind it, there seems to be a fatal weakness at the foundation where it has left out the critical role of motivation in learning.

The most controversial claim made by the article is that books don't really work. It illustrates this by bringing up issues with poor retention, and justifies it by (1) pointing out that this should be expected since books as a medium were not designed on the basis of an accurate model of human cognition/learning, but rather more by chance or expedience (2) pointing out that we know from experience that some kind of active engagement with the material (e.g. problem sets) is necessary for true learning, which books by default do not provide.

The problem with that however—and probably the main reason why people are reacting so strongly against the article—is that we know books do work, and that learning by 'transmission' does work: the form books take isn't accidental, it mirrors our communication with one another by speech. And speech works. We wouldn't be here if didn't.

And the article basically admits this much, but limits it to working for "some people sometimes". I think if you hone in on that 'sometimes,' the 'some people' isn't even necessary.

The situation may be as as simple as: 'sometimes' depends on whether there is true motivation/desire/interest to learn the material in question. (And it has to be interest in the intrinsic contents of the material: being genuinely interested in learning it because it's going to make you sound smart will not work!)

Let's say you've got some debilitating condition and a book comes out that offers instructions on how to remedy it, which rest on a body of new concepts introduced by the book. Are you going to need exercises and flash cards etc.—in short, any kind of supplement to understanding beyond the raw ideas themselves—in order effectively internalize the ideas?

I would claim no. A raw stream of ideas will be adequate as long as a demand for those ideas has been made beforehand.

So what the article is really answering is: how can we teach people things that they don't really desire to know. We may desire to "know things" in general and be motivated to read books as a consequence—but that's different from having a genuine desire to understand some specific thing, and then reading about that specific thing.

The situation with instruction in schools is largely the same thing: we want students to be 'educated' and they (sometimes) want 'education'—but that generic desire for knowledge appears to be inadequate in creating the necessary antecedent desire for knowledge on the specific subject at hand.

I see going beyond books to create "mediums in which 'reading' is the same as 'understanding'," as basically a proposal to develop surrogates for motivation/interest. And maybe for e.g. systematized childhood/teenage education that ends up being the best approach. I think it's intriguing. There are definitely cases where we don't know why we should know some things, but we should just learn them anyway.

But I'd say in the general case, you should let your genuine interest guide you, and if you don't really want to know the answers given by some book, don't read it. If you really do want to know, then issues like properly dealing with metacognition etc. while reading will fall into place naturally. Your brain knows how to update its schemas with new knowledge; it's not something we need to figure out for it.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#84

Almost all the books and blog posts can be made at least 10 times shorter without loss in educational value. People just include too much of irrelevant stuff when writing. Schools should teach brevity and search engines should encourage it instead of requiring people to inflate their writings as much as they can. For many books you can just find summaries online, read/watch them and hardly loose anything compared to…

So true! I think the problem is particularly bad in high-school and first-year undergraduate textbooks, which are "padded" with useless extras, non-sense boxes, and lots of blah blah to the point of being literally 5x thicker than they need to be. Let's face it, nobody is going to read a 1000+ page PHYS 101 textbook. Textbooks for graduate level courses are usually much better, as are textbooks outside the North Amer…

BTW, whoever wants a really concise "zero-to-hero" level PHYS 101 book read "No bullshit guide to math and physics" by Ivan Savov.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#87

I think you might be reading books wrong if that's what you're hoping to take out of them, that is, remember this or that specific quote out of it. For me, at least, the value of a book is changing your way of thinking, or better yet, present new questions that you did not even dare to ask. I would recommend Darwin's own Origin of Species instead of Dawkins' Selfish Gene. I've read both. They can't even begin to comp…

This Shopenhauer quote is quite apt; thank you for the thoughtful response. One wondering: to what extent is information a prerequisite for insight?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#88
The Selfish Gene and Guns, Germs, and Steel are pop science, not "serious non-fiction tomes".

As for books not working, that's absurd. 1) Some books work better than others. 2) To a large extent, you get more out of books the more you put into them.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#89
> Picture some serious non-fiction tomes. The Selfish Gene; Thinking, Fast and Slow; Guns, Germs, and Steel

Serious non-fiction tomes? I mean, I guess if you regard Harlequin romance as difficult novels. Okay, I'll stop giggling long enough to skim the rest.

Reading the rest, the core complaint seems to be that most people cannot effectively read and most people cannot effectively write. Which is true.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#90
post #11

Counterpoint: books work really well as evidenced by all of human development?

It’s true! I tried to evoke that paradox with the Sagan quote. On a relative basis, it’s remarkable what they’ve achieved. On an absolute basis, thought, it’s surprising how unreliable the medium is (and hence all the more spectacular that they’ve achieved the results we enjoy!). If the medium achieved these results while as unreliable as it appears to be, how much more could readily be achieved?
Post reply on HN