Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it were only true or false negatives complaining, that would be one thing. But lots of the complaining also comes from true positives. I've gotten every tech job I've interviewed for since college, and have usually been quite successful in the companies I've worked for. I think all of those interviews were evaluating me on the wrong metric. They evaluated something I also happen to be relatively good at - I have a…
All of those things, though, are inherently hard to test in a way that's fair, representative, and not easily cheated. Anyone who had a reproducible, consistent way to evaluate which candidates are good at those things would be able to make a whole lot of money.
We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
81–90 of 156 posts
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, we're not trying to solve the hiring/interviewing problem yet. We've completely punted on that by only working with people that have a very specific type of experience. We know that leaves out a HUGE number of excellent engineers. Right now we are focusing on a small niche to try and build a sustainable business. Then we'll have the resources and impact to solve the broader problem.
But someone hiring doesn't need you to use "has worked at a FAANG or similar" as a filtering mechanism, so that's not the value you can provide. Perhaps they'd have trouble finding someone who "has worked at a FAANG or similar" for a contract job without you, and that's it.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
What problem did you attempt to solve? You are essentially offloading the vetting problem to all the companies who's former employees you work with. The only value I can see that you create is in liquidity in the market. Sure, there's some benefit to solving market inefficiencies and making some money along the way, but don't pretend for a second that this isn't just another recruiting firm using pedigree as a proxy…
I had written basically this same response fearing I was being overly judgemental before seeing your response but my gut was the same. The posts read like sales pitches for someone solving a problem of making money for themselves by limiting their portfolio to candidates for whom $company had done the hard work of vetting by having previously hired. Click-bait is a generous summation, I feel.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
Heh. The last couple time I've seen a candidate rejected for "poor culture fit", it was because the candidate themselves demonstrated ageism or racism.
Racism as in speaking up against reverse racism?
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#85You can judge programmer's ability in 60 minutes. Can someone program? 60 minutes is way more than enough. How great of a programmer are they? You're going to need more than 60 minutes, unless already had a chance to look at their prior code base. What's difficult to judge is, are they organized? are they hard working? how do they handle stress? how's their communication and attitude? do they write great documentatio…
> You can judge programmer's ability in 60 minutes. [...] What's difficult to judge is, are they organized? are they hard working? [...] do they write great documentation? do they test their code? [...] You answer in the affirmative, but then go on to clarify that you're excluding 95% of the job. I would simplify this to say "no, you can't".
He's trying to draw the distinction between these two questions.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#86You can judge programmer's ability in 60 minutes. Can someone program? 60 minutes is way more than enough. How great of a programmer are they? You're going to need more than 60 minutes, unless already had a chance to look at their prior code base. What's difficult to judge is, are they organized? are they hard working? how do they handle stress? how's their communication and attitude? do they write great documentatio…
Last year, I interviewed with a well-known media company, and they gave me a take-home coding challenge which was essentially about building a notes application in Rails that philosophically replicated a file system; notes could exist in any part of a hierarchy of directories, but no same file could exist in multiple directories at once.
Seems pretty simple, right? Anyone with a fair amount of experience with Rails would probably whip up some models for folders and notes, folders would has_many :folders and has_many :notes, and notes would belong_to :folder, etc. A solution along those lines would probably have sufficed for the coding challenge, as it would demonstrate knowledge of Rails.
But I couldn't just leave it there. That kind of solution would have been extremely crappy in a situation where there is a huge amount of notes in deep directories. After a few hours of careful thought, I came up with a solution similar to how Amazon S3 works, where directories are really just keys in a database and the stored files(or notes in this case) are the values of those keys.
My solution had the advantage that directories and their files could be queried through simple string matching, meaning that queries scale linearly with deep and complex directory structures rather than exponentially. The only case where things might be less optimal is during directory renames, in which case all sub-directories and files would have to be found and updated, but I considered that a compromise since renames happen less often than reads and writes.
They liked my solution enough that they flew me out for an on-site interview, and they said that nobody else came up with that solution.
Would I have come up with that solution if I was given 60 minutes and had someone looking over my shoulder? Probably not. Such limitations prevent taking time to think and letting the mind ponder, which is valuable.
If that challenge was done in 60 minutes, they would have assessed that I knew Rails but probably wouldn't know how I actually approach problems.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#87Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#88You can judge programmer's ability in 60 minutes. Can someone program? 60 minutes is way more than enough. How great of a programmer are they? You're going to need more than 60 minutes, unless already had a chance to look at their prior code base. What's difficult to judge is, are they organized? are they hard working? how do they handle stress? how's their communication and attitude? do they write great documentatio…
I think that’s true, but I also think that hiring managers rarely try to look for it.
I was on an interview, and one of the reasons I didn’t get the job was because in my current position I manage a “small team.” That team is 5 people. They had 8 people to manage. I understand that each extra person adds extra challenges, but 8 is only a little bigger than 5.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, we're not trying to solve the hiring/interviewing problem yet. We've completely punted on that by only working with people that have a very specific type of experience. We know that leaves out a HUGE number of excellent engineers. Right now we are focusing on a small niche to try and build a sustainable business. Then we'll have the resources and impact to solve the broader problem.
What problem did you attempt to solve? You are essentially offloading the vetting problem to all the companies who's former employees you work with. The only value I can see that you create is in liquidity in the market. Sure, there's some benefit to solving market inefficiencies and making some money along the way, but don't pretend for a second that this isn't just another recruiting firm using pedigree as a proxy…
Two problems.
1. Finding a senior freelancer is hard. I've been unhappy with sites like Toptal and Upwork. 2. Being a senior freelancer is hard. Finding work, getting paid. We offer services for freelancers to take care of that.
Some people find it valuable.
Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview
#90I once sent one of the very best programmers I know for a job interview.
I have met a small handful of outstanding programmers in my > 30 years in IT and this guy was in the top five, near the top.
I had personally worked directly with him for 5 years and he was unquestionably one of the most talented programmers there is, and a nice guy, easy to get along with and great to work with. Incredibly productive, and capable of the most incredible feats of software development.
The client interviewed him and said ....... no thanks.
There you go - I have just explained everything you need to know about technical recruiting. Give it some thought - the more you think about it, the more it reveals the deepest truth about YOU and your software hiring processes.
NO-ONE - no-one ever thinks they make the wrong call when they reject a candidate - including you.
If you want to know what happened after that - I called the CEO who I knew quite well and essentially said to him "What the fuck are you doing? I sent you one of the best programmers there is - and I know this from first hand personal experience over five years - and your interviewers rejected him?". They employed him because of that and he became their chief technical architect pretty quickly.