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Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

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Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#81
post #2

A quick look at Simon Baron Cohen's tweet[1] (linked from the article) shows that this topic seems extremely divisive and inflammatory to people. Is this retraction and resulting modified study seen as an important victory for people promoting that there are no differences between the "male" and "female" brains? [1] https://twitter.com/sbaroncohen/status/832490232721371136

"Victory" is the entirely wrong way to look at it. A serious scientist would not crow about a result like this in a paper, and anyone interested in the success of science should be very sad about such a majorly incorrect statistic being pushed out into the world.

As for the tweet, Baron-Cohen's language in that tweet seems to be a cry of triumph, using language that he presumably realizes (or ought to) would be inflammatory. There are good reasons that this is a sensitive subject. And how you present and talk about the results is a big part of why.

Science--particularly psychology and neuroscience--has a long-established history of unscientific lies and willful misinterpretations about differences due to sex (and race and other things) that have been demonstrably harmful to millions of people. Only the confidence of ultimate privilege could make you think that now we've finally turned a corner and can be totally objective about such things.

When the biggest names in such research lecture other people about how important it is to be serious about studying oh-so-scientific proof of sex differences while simultaneously cheering on their long-preferred outcome like it's a sporting event is... unprofessional at best. A good scientist should be humble about their own instincts and should be thoughtful and careful about succumbing to confirmation bias. But here we had Simon Baron-Cohen crowing over a single result in the most obnoxiously oversimplified way possible.

There's a huge amount of context here that I am (and probably you are) missing, and I certainly can't judge these people's motives. But I'll say it again: serious scientists who really care about finding out the facts about sex differences in brain development should probably not be crowing about single studies on Twitter in inflammatory ways.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#82
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since when was autism a cornerstone in anybody's ideology? Anti-vaxxers?

This isn't really political. Both the left and the right fall into this camp.

Just because it doesn’t neatly fit the normal left/right axis doesn’t make it non-political.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#83
post #2

A quick look at Simon Baron Cohen's tweet[1] (linked from the article) shows that this topic seems extremely divisive and inflammatory to people. Is this retraction and resulting modified study seen as an important victory for people promoting that there are no differences between the "male" and "female" brains? [1] https://twitter.com/sbaroncohen/status/832490232721371136

Well it is Autism awareness day. So a few bits of context

1: Simon-Baron Cohen has become world famous for promoting his "extreme male brain" theory of Autism to the point its hard to imagine he's NOT emotionally attached to it.

2: It is notable women with Autism get diagnosed later and its broadly believed by those familiar with Autism that they are underdiagnosed. The extreme male brain theory however bega the questiom that maybe women possibly lack as extreme male of a brain as the men and thus are less autistic and that explains the diagnosis discrepancy? Which is obviously controversial.

3: Autistic womens brains AREN'T LIKE typical male brains. So the nomenclature of saying they have "male brains" in itself is controversial. Especially when girls grew up bullied for being different often being accused of not being sufficiently girly.

4: Generally the people who advocate for autistic men have grievances against some aspects of masculinity. Yet autistic men in certain ways act hypermasculine (isolation, indifference to pain, etc.) Male autistics are likely to be raised in an unusually feminine environment and ardn't always considered manly and can yearn for some sort of masculine identity. So there is this awkward dynamic.

The group most commonly diagnosed as autistic, white men tend to get no love from their allies in regards to other aspects of their identity. This leads to high functioning autistics like James Damore who literally want to tear down affirmative action policies that nominally benefit autistic people. Men like these proceed to get burned at the stake by their allies. This leads to angry resentful autistics inflaming discussions like this.

5: There is a strong correlation between autism and transgenderism and nobody really knows why. Transwomen are autistic at rates far above the general population. This really pisses off autistic transwomen. Generally autism seems to have a significant impact on gender identity.

There is a surprising amount of tension here anyways.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#84
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early intervention with behaviour modification therapy, especially in early school life where social interaction skills really matter. In adult life, it can lead to better psychological therapy. Managing anxiety in ASD is different to neurotypical people, for example.

> Managing anxiety in ASD is different to neurotypical people, for example. Speaking as somebody too 'high functioning' for a diagnosis... please elaborate edit: the responses to this feel weird, does anybody have resources for ASD folks experiencing anxiety?

I'm in a similar borderland, I'm diagnosed ADD, and my daughter ADD with autistic traits.

Doesn't make me the best person to answer, but I also felt the responses to be weird. But I'll relate some of my experiences, if they might be of some use.

I'm not an expert in anxiety by any means, however, one thing that stands out to me is that when my daughter is feeling anxious about something, let's say it would be about the state of geopolitics - or whatever - I could calm her by telling her that it is in fact a rather dire situation. That is, if this is representative, that the uncertainty in/about/through your own interpretation is often more disconcerting than even the worst case scenario. Similarly, I've had friends tell me: Yep, you are being an idiot! Which is accompanied by a figurative, if not literal sigh of relief from me.

While this probably isn't completely alien in anxiety in general, it seems much more pronounced for people close to, or on the spectrum.

For some I also believe a weaker/different perception of time plays a significant role in the difference. Maybe this is more my ADD side, but time can become invisible, everything is a moment which encompasses all of time. Ancient, yet newborn and without temporal roots.

Hence some anxiety might not be as much about the future, but of this current eternal now and all that has been. I rarely get embarrassed even if I done something mind boggling stupid, but I can sometimes get anxious about small things that happened decades ago, of which the outcomes have certainly completely played out. It's as if cause and effect isn't always causally ordered in my subconscious brain, hence the memory evoked doesn't evoke the appropriate emotional state.

Got a real headache, so I'll stop typing now. Quite likely mostly gibberish anyway, tends to become such when I'm in this state, against my best intentions. But hey, practice makes perfect, eh :)

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#85

I am not too sure about autism being directly a further male brain than the normative population. As a counter, the number of Male-to-Female transgender people in the speedrunning community is staggeringly high, and should be given some thought.

Escapism might just be the case. I know from my own experience gaming was just a way to focus on something else besides a cruel reality. Eventually moved to programming and realized later what was happening. I'm sure if life had been different, I would have done a different career and one that's more social with the focus in a social aspect.

Escapism is certainly an aspect of autism. My personal theory is that autism is akin to really dense hair, in that your mind is less flexible, and thus themes of constancy arise early in development. This analogy implies both that an autist would be highly structured in thought, which is Simon Baron Cohen's pioneering idea, and would be very low in prowess of executive function, as the mind would be too inflexible to a change in perspective.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#86
post #12

Looks like it was an issue with a script. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't a bigger issue than we know in science. Good scripting practice is not taught in most programs. On top of that it's not really possible to write tests for regressions.

This would be solved if researchers were actually required to provide all software/data necessary to replicate their results

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#87
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pretty much sums it up. As always, just replace with "cancer" and see if you sound dismissive or callous. "How does being diagnosed help the cancer patient?"

Does that work with allergy to electricity as well? Not all doctors here believe in that so it’s a hot topic

Depends on the audience.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#88
post #66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s uncontroversial to say that on average, men are taller than women. But other characteristics such as nutrition and genetics matter more: the average German woman (5’5”) is significantly taller than the average Peruvian man (5’1”). My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors.

> the difference between men and women on most metrics I think that's the problem part of your argument. There's no qualification of what "most metrics" includes, much less whether that holds true for must neurological effects (which is more to the point), and that's before we even get around to discussing the fact that I'm sure there's a bunch of metrics we don't even know about. Your statement might be entirely tru…

Because we do known that men and women are neurologically different. There's a wealth of evidence suggesting so. And considering what we know about sexual dimorphism, this is completely unsurprising.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#89
post #88
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the difference between men and women on most metrics I think that's the problem part of your argument. There's no qualification of what "most metrics" includes, much less whether that holds true for must neurological effects (which is more to the point), and that's before we even get around to discussing the fact that I'm sure there's a bunch of metrics we don't even know about. Your statement might be entirely tru…

Because we do known that men and women are neurologically different. There's a wealth of evidence suggesting so. And considering what we know about sexual dimorphism, this is completely unsurprising.

I was responding to a comment that said "My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors."

Given the topic, I took that as an argument that the neurological differences are not as pronounced as what is created by external factors, and I was responding to the lack of evidence provided for that view (which I interpret as the opposite of the view you suggested).

I actually lean towards your position, but I wasn't trying to express that as an argument (I'm unqualified to). I was just trying to point out what I saw as at best very loose reasoning (at least when provided without evidence).

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#90
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early intervention with behaviour modification therapy, especially in early school life where social interaction skills really matter. In adult life, it can lead to better psychological therapy. Managing anxiety in ASD is different to neurotypical people, for example.

> Managing anxiety in ASD is different to neurotypical people, for example. Speaking as somebody too 'high functioning' for a diagnosis... please elaborate edit: the responses to this feel weird, does anybody have resources for ASD folks experiencing anxiety?

Well the only ressource I have is my experience. I endured severe anxiety from childhood, instead of reading "normal" books at my early age I was into astrophysics and it lead me also to ask to myself why I was here down earth, the purpose of life blabla. It was in France. My mother thought I was just way too much anxious about nothing and told me to breath properly while I was doing panic attacks every single nights... But in the end I had only myself to rely on and I ended up studying people's behaviours to fit a bit into the society. Now if you interact with me of course I won't be amazingly extrovert although my Asperger's traits aren't that obvious now if you spend a short amount of time with me. But to be honest, because of a huge misdiagnosis in France I've spent 12 years under the wrong treatments while I was simply an aspie. Now I'm still taking some medications, because you know, you can't get rid of all of those medications cold turkey, and my psychiatric treatments and journey turned into a punitive one. But there's worse.

Edit: During my Master's degree I spent one year studying remotely because of agoraphobia, stuck in my student room. Social anxiety is something I'm kind of used to deal with now... But it didn't blocked me to travel and work abroad. :)

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