Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

hongkongfp.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 122 posts

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#81

Post by mirimir »

frotak wrote: post #79
mirimir wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I get that. That's why I came to the US. And I do believe that, for the most part, the US does display an honest commitment to those values. But still, imposing your values on others is an iffy thing.

In the one case you have China actively violating the freedoms and liberties of the people living under its control and on the other hand you have the UN as a collective body seeking to have a discussion about that. China is actively seeking in this case to kill any sort of discourse. The UN has no power to impose its values on anyone else. It can, as a body, take certain actions to indirectly affect nations of the w…

> ... freedoms and liberties ...

Yes, they are for sure doing that.

But then, those are European concepts. I'm not even sure if they're really expressible in endogenous Chinese languages.

So is cultural imperialism OK, as long as we're really "in the right"? That was basically Spain's argument for taking over Mexico etc. God was on their side.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#82

Post by ElBarto »

samch wrote: post #30
ElBarto wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a ridiculous comparison. China is not expanding and does not systematically imprison minorities (and as you know the holocaust is in another league altogether). The point of my previous comment is also to avoid such comparisons that are unhelpful, to say the least. Don't overuse those terms (holocaust, nazi, etc)

China is looking to expand. China already took Tibet. It claims Taiwan. Now, it’s making audacious claims over the South China Sea - even going so far as to build artificial islands to cement their claims.

Considering that both Tibet and Taiwan are recognised Chinese territories it is odd to see that as expansion. Taiwan is a continuation of the Chinese civil war with the winner seeking to get the last Chinese territory not under its control.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#83

Post by guitarbill »

confusedhnguy wrote: post #76
mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

Obviously nobody cares about right or wrong. The average westerners only want to accuse China so they can feel good about themselves for a while, and their leaders only want to secure world domination. Look at some of the comments here, people have no idea what they are talking about. Seriously? A civil war is good in his/her book? How many people do you think is going to die? And would the US and the Europe happily…

> and their leaders only want to secure world domination.

projection?

> the west always focus fire on the Chinese when they talk about human right issues?

we don't. maybe you just pay attention to those stories more though.

> Also, an unbaised standard does not exist when it comes to international affairs.

i'll agree with this, however it doesn't make morally wrong things less wrong, or mean people don't suffer.

> as a Chinese living in the US, many Americans have asked me [...] do I have microwaves/tap water back in China

this could just be a weird thing Americans do, even in Canada or Europe they'll ask if it's safe to drink tap water.

out of interest, how many of your countrymen to have access to clean tap water?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#84

Post by frotak »

tehjoker wrote: post #80
frotak wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time when there were powers and authorities in the Western world that would silence dissent via violence and murder. See Galileo and the Catholic Church as an example. Or the Inquisition. Or any number of other examples of absolute authority executed by a State or State based actors in the pursuit of silencing dissent and controlling discourse. A fundamental component of American ideology is the protectio…

I suggest you should read up on the far more recent case of Fred Hampton and COINTELPRO regarding US "protection of dissent". American institutions protect the status quo and allow "safe" dissent (meaning bounded (e.g. NY Times) or ineffective (tiny groups / grandpa screaming) dissent). However, free speech is treated more seriously here than most other places and times in history, that is true and good. https://www.…

I am not saying that there aren't parts of the U.S. government that actively work against free speech - because that is certainly the case.

However the very fact that we can discuss these things (or that there is a book that is freely accessible to all on the subject of a specific instance of institutional oppression in the U.S.) openly and without fear that our doors are going to get knocked in and see us getting swept off to a "reeducation camp" are the signs that we live in a country that strongly values free speech.

The U.S. does not have a perfect track record by any means...but for all of the examples you give of bad action by the U.S. as an institution I am aware of large and public and accessible documentation in the forms of museums, installations and other means of dissemination and availability.

In other words the U.S. airs (or allows to be aired) its dirty laundry as much or more than most other countries. And while this invites "whataboutism" it certainly, in my opinion, helps validate our position to openly question and try to discuss the actions of other nations.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#85

Post by mirimir »

confusedhnguy wrote: post #76
mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

Obviously nobody cares about right or wrong. The average westerners only want to accuse China so they can feel good about themselves for a while, and their leaders only want to secure world domination. Look at some of the comments here, people have no idea what they are talking about. Seriously? A civil war is good in his/her book? How many people do you think is going to die? And would the US and the Europe happily…

Thanks. It's great to see a comment by a Chinese person.

As I've said, individual rights and freedoms matter a lot to me. I'm pretty radical about it. More or less an anarchist, in the Crowley sense. Or as Stover would say, a Cainist.

But still, I do my best to be open-minded. There's always the risk of infection, I know, but my mental immune system is pretty damn hardcore.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#86

Post by azinman2 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #38
mensetmanusman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isolation doesn’t work (as you point out with NK). Integration also doesn’t seem to be working (well, not nearly as fast as those in the Nixon era and since then hypothesized). My view is that isolation is a worse route, because mostly the poor suffer from economic isolation. I really like the strategy of targeting the powerful politicians/rich benefactors using tools like the magnitsky act. Those people shouldn’t ha…

Why restrict it to western countries? The UN is made to form a huge bloc of countries that should be aimed at preventing the atrocities seen in WW2 (and before); so far, given what's happening in NK, China and the US it doesn't seem very effective. (I included the US because it has the highest incarceration rate of the world which disproportionately affects a racial minority; if prisons were relabeled as re-education…

Right... except a judicial system not only put people in there, they have the ability to challenge it. This is not an analogous situation.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#87

Post by skybrian »

Brain_Thief wrote: post #62
skybrian wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is far too large a problem for individual buying decisions to make much of a dent. But if you're against trade, maybe tariffs will do it?

1) The societies of the world are composed of individuals. Individual actions, if appropriately cultivated and communicated, may become group actions. Individual actions absolutely matter. 2) At no point did I claim to be against trade.

Encouraging people to not buy stuff from an entire country or do business with them (basically an informal boycott) sure sounds like a way of penalizing trade, but much less effective. If that's not what you meant, maybe explain it again?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#88

Post by frotak »

mirimir wrote: post #81
frotak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the one case you have China actively violating the freedoms and liberties of the people living under its control and on the other hand you have the UN as a collective body seeking to have a discussion about that. China is actively seeking in this case to kill any sort of discourse. The UN has no power to impose its values on anyone else. It can, as a body, take certain actions to indirectly affect nations of the w…

> ... freedoms and liberties ... Yes, they are for sure doing that. But then, those are European concepts. I'm not even sure if they're really expressible in endogenous Chinese languages. So is cultural imperialism OK, as long as we're really "in the right"? That was basically Spain's argument for taking over Mexico etc. God was on their side.

> those are European concepts

Only inasmuch as they were born in Europe who in turn had to flee their home country to pretty much make it a reality.

In the article in questions here no one is talking about intervening in the internal affairs of other countries.

The point of contention is that China is actively working to prevent the very discussion of what is happening under its authority. And they are actively using violent physical force to impose their authority and prevent discussion and dissent within their borders.

Is history replete with examples of Western countries undertaking violent imperialistic expansion? Absolutely.

Is that what we're doing now or talking about here? No.

> I'm not even sure if they're really expressible in endogenous Chinese languages.

And it never will be expressible unless and until free and open discussion can be engaged in.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#89

Post by pleasecalllater »

chapium wrote: post #6
pleasecalllater wrote: post #2

I'm wondering if people in China can see this website in Google. Edit: to people who are downvoting this... check this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19540562

People aren't downvoting this within 7 minutes of you posting.

Well, it got downvoted in the first 2 minutes.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#90

Post by mirimir »

devoply wrote: post #77
mirimir wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say. But I've heard even vaguely liberal Chinese argue differently. And seriously, have you actually read Confucius? Or the Yi Jing? Concepts like social benefit trumping individual freedom, and respect for authority, go back a long way. Fascism and Communism are relatively modern European inventions. Even Chinese Communism, at its peak, was never anything like what Marx and Engels imagined. Although they talk…

Yes historically Chinese civilization has been highly hierarchical and authoritarian. Which has to do with their state craft, not something due to the will of the people. So much so that they used to completely mistreat people, like for instance see how the great wall was built. That does not mean that we should laud or tolerate that as their culture and the way that it has to be. And if we're talking about living in…

> That's a universal global thing now.

Except for China. And not really even for India. Or for much of the Middle East, for that matter. Or even for Russia, when you really get down to it.

So maybe not so much a "global" thing. Maybe a European culture thing. Which thinks that it ought to be global.

And yet, I do believe that it ought to be global. But I realize that I'm on shaky ground there.

Post reply on HN