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Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

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Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only chance we have for people to run their own services is if we make it dead easy to do so and the advantages are clearly communicated. Unfortunately, that hasn’t been open source’s forte historically.

> ”The only chance we have for people to run their own services is if we make it dead easy” In the case of DNS, it’s dead easy if the server is built in to home routers. Many of them do, in fact, ship with local DNS already - it’s just that many users override it with 8.8.8.8 or whatever.

The DNS servers shipped in home routers are usually set up as caching DNS proxies by default, and will forward queries for cache misses to the DNS resolvers or caching proxies that your ISP is running, rather than the DNS servers in home routers doing the full resolution themselves. So it’s not what I would consider “true” “local DNS”.

However, even if we did switch everyone to running their own DNS resolvers, what would happen then? Without the massive shared caching we have today, the load would significantly increase on the authorative DNS servers for each domain. Even with client local caching.

So the number of companies running their own authorative DNS servers would probably decrease — more of them would be using hosted DNS provided by a third party. A lot of companies host the authorative DNS of their domains with a third party big already. Including myself — I use Cloudflare for all my sites because of the HTTP caching and other things they offer on top of hosted DNS.

Increased load on authorative servers will likely lead to further centralization of DNS hosting with a few big providers IMO. Because even a lot companies that specialize in hosting DNS might not be able to handle the load when everyone is running their own resolver. Only the big DNS hosting companies will be able to afford it. So we end up with everyone hosting DNS with a few DNS hosting providers — Cloudflare, Amazon Route 53, etc.

So by decentralizing the DNS resolvers that clients use, you push companies to centralize the authorative DNS servers further. The net effect is that you will only have shifted where in the resolution the queries centralize.

And let’s say that this happens and Google sees the amount of queries received by 8.8.8.8 drop to near zero over night. Odds are that if Google values the data they gain from clients using these resolvers, they will make a big push to ensure that they host the DNS for as many companies as possible, so that they still end up with their hands on the query data. (And Google does value this data — otherwise they wouldn’t still be offering public DNS query servers.)

And also, what about the root servers? Will they be able to handle the massive increase in load? And won’t the root server traffic be subject to surveillance by state actors wanting to know what sites someone is browsing?

DNS is kind of funny because in a way it is both centralized and decentralized at the same time. But if you want the web to be truly decentralized I believe for the reasons stated above that having people run their own DNS resolvers is not part of the solution.

You are going to have to replace DNS altogether. Realistically I don’t think DNS is going away anytime soon. The web and the internet in general is too reliant on it. But I really wish we could.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#82
post #68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Performance? Due to DNS caching at the resolver level, it is probably faster to use Google's 8.8.8.8 or CloudFlare's 1.1.1.1, than anything local (where all dns requests are a MISS). It's perfectly possible to recursive resolve your misses to Google's DNS server if you want.

> It's perfectly possible to recursive resolve your misses to Google's DNS server if you want. I don't think that's how recursive name servers work. It's been a while since I've had to reason about this but, for example if 'www.google.com' in not cache, it contacts a root domain server, then a 'com' domain server, then a 'google.com' domain server, which finally answers the query, which then gets cached by the recurs…

What you said is incorrect.

Almost all DNS servers ever have an ability to set a DNS forwarder instead of using root hints.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#83
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not certain it is relevant anymore but ISPs used to MITM DNS requests and would send you to redirects for search/advertising pages for what should've been NXDOMAIN responses. Google at the moment has a better track record here.

They didn’t MITM the requests ... you had to explicitly be using the ISP’s DNS servers. And yes this is one of the reasons I long ago stopped using my ISPs DNS servers.

So I've encountered ISPs that do MITM the requests regardless of which provider you use.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#84
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically my ISP is using their DNS servers to block archive.is

Sure sucks to live in New Zealand right now, doesn't it?

I'm in NZ and the link works fine for me on my Slingshot connection. Probably an ISP-specific issue.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't IPv6 make this easier? Isn't the primary reason people don't run their own servers now because of NAT?

The other reason is that maintaining a server and its services is sometimes a full-time job :/

This is anecdotal but I decided to host my own sites. I bought the cheapest droplet from digital ocean that I could and I set it up running Fedora. Then I installed Apache, MySQL and PHP so I could run some wordpress sites.

The server kept running out of memory and shutting down MySQL so my sites stopped working. I started to learn how to read logs and saw that there is a huge amount of malicious activity directed at my server all the time.

Yesterday I installed Fail2ban which meant installing postfix. I got it working (took most of the day) but I can't send emails to my gmail account because I need to set up dkim and dmarc and other stuff. I have a list. But first I have to learn how to do all this stuff.

I use Fedora every day at work but I'm obviously no sysadmin and you are so right. All this takes hours and hours to learn and then to stay on top of it. When I was on shared hosting I had a lot less control and options but it was a lot easier as well.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#86
post #20

More people should be running their own mail servers, their own web servers, their own IRC servers, etc. But I don't think we are ever going back to that direction. The arguments and benefits for running one locally are not enough the trouble as well. Performance? Due to DNS caching at the resolver level, it is probably faster to use Google's 8.8.8.8 or CloudFlare's 1.1.1.1, than anything local (where all dns request…

> Performance? Due to DNS caching at the resolver level, it is probably faster to use Google's 8.8.8.8 or CloudFlare's 1.1.1.1, than anything local (where all dns requests are a MISS).

Some resolvers (like unbound) can be configured to prefetch cached entries before they expire. And in any case if you use something locally you are probably going to configure it to fetch recursively from one of the "big guys"

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#87
I agree with Paul Vixie. The internet, IMO, is not a playground for large corporations.

What originally made the Internet amazing was the participatory nature of it. As it started 'standardizing' or 'accruing', autonomy was lost in the pursuit of efficiency.

Today, 2-3 corporations are just trying to own the internet, and this needs to stop. I favour a participation in the Internet than what it is today.

Okay, so how can we make it happen?

- Make a decent DNS Server in Go/Rust/.

- Make this embeddable in routers/open stacks, maybe in OpenWRT.

- Make it easier to define top level zones/domains in a modern, easy data format (maybe JSON/YAML). Make this an overlay/augment format.

- Publish bootstrap corpus of data for such independent DNS servers; No, they do not need to have all the root server content updated as frequently. It could be easy to sync this periodically with a git pull. This should be an internet-wide mirrored effort, like Bitcoin.

- Isolate oneself from people, arguments and organizations who want to use AWS/Google/ because they work at scale and are cheap. One should know that to have an independent internet, the change starts with the self.

- Run the DNS server at home, production, *cloud and protect the Internet.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other reason is that maintaining a server and its services is sometimes a full-time job :/

This is anecdotal but I decided to host my own sites. I bought the cheapest droplet from digital ocean that I could and I set it up running Fedora. Then I installed Apache, MySQL and PHP so I could run some wordpress sites. The server kept running out of memory and shutting down MySQL so my sites stopped working. I started to learn how to read logs and saw that there is a huge amount of malicious activity directed at…

Move mysql to a separate droplet. vultr: $2.50 otherwise you have to change mysql defaults to get things to fit. Great tutorials are out there in general reduce your workers/processes.

Why do you need dkim or dmarc to send to gmail? If you send a test php mail does gmail pick it up?

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#89
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work for Google, but not on DNS or Gmail. > Now, Google does claim they don't track DNS requests. But consider why that is? Once upon a time they didn't scan Gmail content either, but that was before GMail dominated the webmail space. You seem to assume that it's a singular organization with a unified agenda, but this really isn't the case. It's the same thing about when folks assume Google looks at you…

"Google DNS: speed up DNS, which improves load times, which improves the overall web experience." Oh, just stop. It's even more disappointing to consider that you believe this to be true .

As a counter-anecdote to your disbelief, I've enjoyed internet on an ISP whose DNS servers were very slow. Slow enough for me to spend the effort to find out what's the holdup between enter key and first paint. DNS responses were about 350ms, compared to 8.8.8.8 sub-20ms.

Edit: I should add that the slowness wasn't a peak hour thing, it was consistent, all day, for several months.

Switching made my subjective experience better.

Re: Paul Vixie thinks more people should be running their own DNS servers

#90
Then he should have made it a lot easier to do so. The whole problem with DNS is the finicky configuration, it is about as tricky to set up properly as a mail server in spite of the outward simplicity. Mail, DNS and also WWW servers are the ideal components of federated systems but the degree to which you have to be a networking guru, security guy and systems administrator to keep all three up and running without issues over a longer period of time is such that many people will simply not take the trouble.
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