Women: Learn to Program This Summer • Hacker News Board

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#81

Post by manfredo » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #54

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #43

There will be benefits to this program for those who participate, and I wholly wish those women who have the opportunity to participate the best of luck. However, I also worry about the motives behind the program. A huge part of feminism is a push towards gender equality[1]. Discriminating against half of the population while aiming for equality is an odd way to behave. I know the blog post did not mention gender equ…

I don't understand why you're getting down voted for this comment. Isn't the goal equal opportunity? Providing artificial silo'd environments seems at odds to the goal of an unbiased, fair workplace. But I guess I'll just get down voted too.

In much of silicon valley, the goal is equal outcomes not equal opportunity. Often times explicitly unequal opportunity is necessary to achieve equal outcomes.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#82

Post by rhcom2 » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

nck4222 wrote: post #65

rhcom2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand, women have obviously been disadvantaged in many ways, for many years, which is wrong. > If this was targeted specifically to disadvantaged people You already accepted women have been disadvantaged though.

Just because women as a group have been disadvantaged, doesn't mean the women receiving this particular advantage deserve it more than other women, or other men. There's nothing in this release saying they want to offer this to disadvantaged women, they simply want to offer it to women.

> they simply want to offer it to women.

But you've said they have been disadvantaged as a group, so they are offering it to a disadvantaged group. I think you're saying they should be disadvantaged in a way besides their gender?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#83

Post by Pfhreak » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

nck4222 wrote: post #65

rhcom2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand, women have obviously been disadvantaged in many ways, for many years, which is wrong. > If this was targeted specifically to disadvantaged people You already accepted women have been disadvantaged though.

Just because women as a group have been disadvantaged, doesn't mean the women receiving this particular advantage deserve it more than other women, or other men. There's nothing in this release saying they want to offer this to disadvantaged women, they simply want to offer it to women.

'disadvantaged women' in your phrase seems ambiguous.

From the lens of intersectionality, I could interpret 'disadvantaged women' to mean women who are also part of another marginalized group (e.g. trans women, women of color, women with disabilities, etc.)

But I could also read your comment as just asking them to be explicit and emphasize that they are making an offering for "women, a group of people at a disadvantage".

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#84

Post by jordigh » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #25

rosterface wrote: post #3

I recently completed a very difficult job search where I unfortunately had to lean on my ethnicity (I’m Mexican) to pass through very overt screening against white men. I was shocked to hear from multiple companies, large and small, that they did not want men and white men in particular. Now we see a YC co-founder giving 40 women $9000 to learn to program. Where does it end? I was really sad that while I personally c…

I can confirm your observations. At my company we have a couple policies. 1. We only accept applicstions from candidate from non-traditional backgrounds if they're diverse. Diverse is defined as any of the following: women, black, Hispanic, or native American - maybe also veterans but I'm not sure. Non-traditional background means coming from a coding boot camp, or majoring in a non-computing related field. I think a…

If it's any consolation about how we underrepresented but unqualified idiots are getting hired everywhere, I've interviewed with Mozilla a couple of times now, selecting the "yep, I'm Mexican" tickbox, and this hasn't gotten me any more hired there either of the times I've interviewed.

I must be really awful if I can't get hired as a Mexican, eh?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#85

Post by ng12 » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #36

ng12 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider that the percentage of VC deals with female-founded companies is 5.4% and yet they receive only 2.2% of VC dollars Stats like this are so useless. Obviously if males make up 95% of the pool they're more likely to have founded some of the unicorns, therefore skewing the average. If one of the 5% of females founded a unicorn I bet they'd have a greater share of VC dollars.

The reason that companies become unicorns is that VCs invest in them at a certain valuation. You have cause and effect reversed. If VCs are underinvesting in female-founded companies, it's entirely expected that fewer of those companies will become unicorns.

I'm not talking about cause and effect, I'm talking about a lazy misapplication of statistics to bolster a talking point.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#86

Post by andonisus » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #71

nck4222 wrote: post #50

I'm trying to figure out on what side of the debate I fall on this one. On the one hand, women have obviously been disadvantaged in many ways, for many years, which is wrong. The gender disparity in software development is well documented, and should be fixed. No one should be discouraged from learning, or opportunities denied because of gender. On the other hand, a for-profit company deciding to offer free services…

> The gender disparity in software development is well documented, and should be fixed. No one should be discouraged from learning, or opportunities denied because of gender. I can tell you why. In part, it's explicit sexism and goal keeping from men, sure. But a far bigger reason there are less women in tech? Step into any engineering course at a 4 year university. Come back and tell me how many women where in your…

What if the underlying reason is that women, as a whole, are less interested in Science/Engineering than men are?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#87

Post by giancarlostoro » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #78

grondilu wrote: post #55

Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? I mean, most programming languages have extensive documentation, tutorials and so on (at least FOSS dynamical languages like Python, Rust, Perl...). From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to…

> so if you have to do it, you'd better love it in the first place. Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things. Compared to other jobs you get paid relatively ok (EU centric view). Compared to some jobs the hours aren't that crazy: hey McKinsey folk! How are you doing? :D Really, it isn't that simple. It depends. It helps if you like it, but…

> Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things.

Not always true, sometimes you have to help lift boxes (100lb) carrying hardware with your software preinstalled / ready to be shipped because you work in a small office and paying someone off to do the same task 1 day randomly throughout the different quarters of the year is not worth the hassle.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#88

Post by grondilu » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #68

grondilu wrote: post #55

Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? I mean, most programming languages have extensive documentation, tutorials and so on (at least FOSS dynamical languages like Python, Rust, Perl...). From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to…

> Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? No? Stuff like pointers, for loops, threads, interface design, data structures, idempotency, source control, working on a linux command line, etc. all present reasonably challenging roadblocks for a burgeoning developer, and I think many of us benefited from having someone around to help walk us through this the first time.

> working on a linux command line,

That's an interesting example. Sure, I was initiated to the Unix command line at the University, but it was just that : an initiation. I got hooked quickly though so I was driven to learn the rest all by myself (or rather, with the help of the linux community online). I'm sure it's more or less the same for most linux nerds. I may have bought one or two books about linux though, but buying a book about a subject you're passionate about is something normal.

You're right that once you want to get into the important technical details, free documentation on the web may be insufficient and you may need to invest in proper textbooks. I still think my point stands, though.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#89

Post by criddell » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

nck4222 wrote: post #50

I'm trying to figure out on what side of the debate I fall on this one. On the one hand, women have obviously been disadvantaged in many ways, for many years, which is wrong. The gender disparity in software development is well documented, and should be fixed. No one should be discouraged from learning, or opportunities denied because of gender. On the other hand, a for-profit company deciding to offer free services…

Should you only help some people if you are willing to help all people?

It's a partial solution to a small part of a big problem.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#90

Post by hhs » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

I think this is wonderful.

Makes me think of Eleanor Roosevelt. She started by focusing on a group. But there were a lot of problems in her times and she recognized that, and she went on to tackle so many things like anti-poverty and unemployed youth.

I wonder if Jessica Livingston will do something similar, since it's written in the FAQ: "Since neither I nor Lambda School have tried this before, I wanted to reduce the number of variables. If it works this summer, we may expand it next summer."