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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#81

Post by dahfizz »

_bxg1 wrote: post #27
azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

There are a lot of applications where predictable performance is just as important, if not moreso, as good performance.

Re: Java 12

#82

Post by threeseed »

Gimpei wrote: post #66
azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

Will this help spark performance at all? I remember having to make a lot of GC tweaks in order to get some of the larger jobs to run.

For most ordinary applications I've seen around about 5-10% of the time is spent on GC. Maybe some badly tuned applications would see benefits.

If you want an order of magnitude jump in performance need to see if the IBM work on Scala Native version of Spark manifests.

Re: Java 12

#83

Post by vorg »

_bxg1 wrote: post #33
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

Java has evolved pretty far past its strict OOP roots. I haven't kept up with the last few versions, but it added lambda functions way back in Java 8, for example. There's definitely syntactic baggage holding it back in some ways, but it's added lots of features for more modern functional-programming styles (one mentioned in this release is expression-style switch statements). More importantly, the JVM ecosystem is m…

> The JVM is a highly-optimized, cross-platform, garbage-collected environment on which people have built much more progressive languages that lack the syntactic baggage of Java: Scala, Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin.

Apache Groovy has inherited all of the syntax of Java. When Jeremy Rayner built the Antlr 2 based syntax for Groovy back in 2005, he began with the syntax for Java, then added the Groovy-specific grammar to it. The latest version of Groovy still uses that syntax, so if Java has syntactic baggage, then Groovy has it too.

I'm picking Groovy will still have that baggage-laden syntax for a while yet. 2 yrs ago, Daniel Sun built an Antlr 4 based replacement grammar, but the Groovy project managers at Apache are taking their sweet time in rolling it along. They even had its optional preview removed from the version 2.6 beta of Groovy.

Re: Java 12

#84

Post by stefan_ »

_bxg1 wrote: post #27
azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

Re: Java 12

#85

Post by threeseed »

wongarsu wrote: post #60
ellard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

You can still have a more modern language i.e. Scala, Kotlin on the JVM whilst not abandoning the unparalleled array of libraries that the Java ecosystem offers.

Re: Java 12

#86

Post by brown9-2 »

benjiweber wrote: post #13
crooked-v wrote: post #4

Still nothing to handle checked exceptions in streams properly... sigh.

Fairly straightforward to handle yourself e.g. https://github.com/unruly/control/blob/master/src/test/java/...

if you have to do this in every step of the Stream then it seems like a failed design.

Re: Java 12

#87

Post by ilovecaching »

ses1984 wrote: post #63
ilovecaching wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only rich if everyone else is poorer than you. At the point Golang, Javascript, Ruby, and Python (these are just the ones I use) have huge completely open source ecosystems. Java's ecosystem is no longer a convincing argument that we should ignore everything else about the language and it's place in the current line up.

No, they are all rich. But I would really hesitate to compare java to js, python, ruby, etc. They aren't as interchangeable. I use all those languages too. Use the right tool for the job. Don't be dogmatic. And don't disparage others. Would I start a new project in Java? Probably not. But I might reach for other jvm languages that were mentioned elsewhere. I'm definitely not too cool to work on an existing Java proje…

Don't conclude that someone is being dogmatic without compelling arguments. Java is a technology, it's ok for it to be superseded by changes in the landscape. I also never said that people should stop using Java, I simply said I felt bad for the people that had to work with it given that it's obsoleted by improvements in sandboxing, package management, and language design.

Re: Java 12

#88

Post by ilovecaching »

dragonwriter wrote: post #74
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

> Java also took OO in so many terrible directions Java basically copied (and cleaned up a bit) C++ OOP of the time. Don't blame Java for any bad direction, it was following rather than leading.

I blame them both. No I don't really, there's historical context there, I only blame people who continue to push OO after 2020.

Re: Java 12

#89

Post by ilovecaching »

coldtea wrote: post #67
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

> I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Yeah, those poor devs with a rock solid, best of class, platform to write code on, with tons of libraries and tooling. > Java no longer runs everywhere It still runs everywhere where it matters. Nobody really cared if it co…

> Whatever.

You have me convinced.

Re: Java 12

#90

Post by samus »

geophile wrote: post #15

Are they ever going to release value types?

The worst thing Oracle can do is deliver a bad feature. Java Gererics turn 15 this year. It's better to delay such a radical change than being stuck with it for the next few decades. Oracle is no hurry to do that. Maybe they get it together in time for the next LTS release (Java 14).
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