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Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

handelsblatt.com

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Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#81

Post by AdrianB1 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #61
iamctobitch wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No sorry this is wrong. You can import East European labor very easily in Germany, so there is no shortage of developers in German market and there never will be in foreseable future. Labor comes from outside, this is precisely why the things are kept at the top so that external people don't get the required information to rival the mothership.

The shortage of developers in Germany is exactly the reason why people from Eastern Europe, Middle East and Africa are hired in the first place. There's plenty of reports and publications discussing this shortage from last 10-15 years - it's not new and it has never been solved. Just an example: https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/companies/wirtschaftswund... I don't know what kind of CTO you are (I'm CTO too), but if…

Completely wrong: there is no shortage of developers, there is a shortage of competent people. Huge difference. Not a CxO myself, but high enough to feel the pain of hiring good people, especially when HR does not allow to pay them properly - for them all developers are the same, so they all get about the same salary.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#82

Post by NeedMoreTea »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #75
xcvvv wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are probably horrible bureaucratic structures in Germany's car industry, I think this comment isn't quite fair. Mercedes and BMW are still very nice to drive in. The issue is more that German's generally don't believe in fads, and self-driving cars are one of them. I just don't want a self driving car, which takes away the last bit of fun of sitting in a metal box: Being in charge of where the damn box go…

>Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful. Somehow they don't find credit cards useful and still pay a lot in cash, when the rest of the world already embraced wireless payments. :)

Alright then, has to be useful whilst not weaponising their lack of privacy.

The rest of the world embraced wireless payments whilst Germans still have a realistic view of privacy impacts. Being at the tail end of that particular adoption curve may still be seen as a feature in Germany. :)

I wish their view were a little more widespread.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#83

Post by fileeditview »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #75
xcvvv wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are probably horrible bureaucratic structures in Germany's car industry, I think this comment isn't quite fair. Mercedes and BMW are still very nice to drive in. The issue is more that German's generally don't believe in fads, and self-driving cars are one of them. I just don't want a self driving car, which takes away the last bit of fun of sitting in a metal box: Being in charge of where the damn box go…

>Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful. Somehow they don't find credit cards useful and still pay a lot in cash, when the rest of the world already embraced wireless payments. :)

I guess if the rest of the world "embraced" it it must be great?

You can pay with credit card for practically anything in Germany. Besides that fact I personally really like to have the option to pay in cash. I don't want literally everything logged by my bank.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#84

Post by AdrianB1 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #75
xcvvv wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are probably horrible bureaucratic structures in Germany's car industry, I think this comment isn't quite fair. Mercedes and BMW are still very nice to drive in. The issue is more that German's generally don't believe in fads, and self-driving cars are one of them. I just don't want a self driving car, which takes away the last bit of fun of sitting in a metal box: Being in charge of where the damn box go…

>Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful. Somehow they don't find credit cards useful and still pay a lot in cash, when the rest of the world already embraced wireless payments. :)

They have historical reasons for that. Hard to understand if you don't have the background.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#85

Post by jeena »

ahartmetz wrote: post #56
iamctobitch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a job which strictly requires expertise from a "German developer" which a Romanian or Polish or Crotaian Developer can't do.

The problem with those Eastern European developers is not that they are bad developers - they are pretty good value for money in and of themselves. The problem is that they are wrapped up in the structures that are killing German automotive software. They are probably the ones that get hired to implement the crap that architects made up and that """only""" needs implementation, no questions asked. Just write the code…

I can second that.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#86

Post by iamctobitch2 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #66
iamctobitch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happens when industry is supported by government and whole ecosystem is created around it, this does give competitive advantages but induces complacemenement. Their final resort is politics (protectionism) to preserve their competitive advantage. In Germany, there is no way for an engineer to become very wealthy through entrepreneurship. Even if you bought a house, you can't make much money from it throu…

>In Germany, there is no way for an engineer to become very wealthy through entrepreneurship. Yet Germany is often held up as the example of valuing engineers and scientists. Isn't the current chancellor a Scientist. >Even if you bought a house, you can't make much money from it through renting or appreciation. That is a good thing. >Because whole country is optimize for cheap labor. Which is why the country is in su…

>Which is why the country is in such a strong position within Europe now, IIRC they are the only country in the EU with a positive balance of trade with China.

Yes they are only because of EU. They convinced other countries to join EU and massively profited off it, while some other EU countries have been destroyed by wage stagnation and brain drain.

Go to any German hospital you'll see many nurses/doctors from East Europe.

Even key infrastructure is maintained by East Europeans.

This country is piggybacking on top of weak EU countries. It doesn't surprise me that they do better by skimming off the top from the neighbors.

Being bad and still being ahead only means that either others are more bad or you are playing dirty.

>You might well look down on teachers but education is far more important than most of the crappy startups people here are working on.

I don't disagree but education in Germany isn't doing bad!

It's software which is doing bad, so we must incentive it and make it better.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#87

Post by lnsru »

iagovar wrote: post #57
edem wrote: post #49

About time. I had the "luck" of working for multiple German companies (including Volkswagen) and I'm surprised how these behemoths still function. As a grunt programmer, it was painful to see how the upper management made decisions based on politics which made no technological sense whatsoever. In my years of working for German companies I saw multiple project reboots, millions of $s thrown out of the window on faile…

They won't learn. I work for another euro behemoth and it's exactly the situation you describe. As long as they pay me and support my lifestyle I have no problem, but Im already tired of trying to fight the nonsense. Sadly Im not a programmer so finding other companies with the same conditions is hard.

Exact my situation. Working for a company with roots in Siemens. The culture is terrible, must fight the nonsense to get some meaningful task. Getting insane money for doing nothing, loosing skills every month, mental health suffers, but family depends on my income. Finding other companies in Germany with similar conditions is hard, looking now in Switzerland.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#88

Post by iamctobitch2 »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #79
iamctobitch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a job which strictly requires expertise from a "German developer" which a Romanian or Polish or Crotaian Developer can't do.

No, there is. At least the jobs the Romanian gets are the cheap versions of the ones Germans have and the demand is so great that people with no IT knowledge get employed in projects where they do more wrong than right. The good developers are rare these days (most have already emigrated, the rest are in process) and the "cheap by the dozen" ones are not worth considering.

So you are claiming that people from other EU countries are descriminated against where a qualified IT worker from East Europe won't be given a job which a no IT knowledge German employ is gladly given.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#89

Post by iamctobitch2 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #56
iamctobitch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a job which strictly requires expertise from a "German developer" which a Romanian or Polish or Crotaian Developer can't do.

The problem with those Eastern European developers is not that they are bad developers - they are pretty good value for money in and of themselves. The problem is that they are wrapped up in the structures that are killing German automotive software. They are probably the ones that get hired to implement the crap that architects made up and that """only""" needs implementation, no questions asked. Just write the code…

German companies have been claiming labor shortage forever now.

All around the world it's done in order to drive down the wage and get government to invest in employee education/training which is then skimmed off by these companies.

It's almost a meme now that there is labor shortage in everything. Pretty sure, restaurants and bars also claim labor shortage.

Re: Germany's car industry faces a perfect storm

#90

Post by jessaustin »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #72
Brakenshire wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those companies really have a problem with software? I’d imagine most of the software in cars is embedded, for controlling different mechanisms for the brakes, steering, cooling, etc. For those, I would prefer a stuffy bureacratic process rather than a Tesla, SV style move-fast attitude, even if that is more productive. I want software in a car to be finished and tested fully when the car is delivered, and then to…

Yes, they do. I am working in a huge company (top 50) where the software we use is from ~ 2000 with upgrades that gets it to ~ 2008-2010. I was offered a higher management position in an automotive company in the embedded software division, I have a friend working there in a peer position and I am going to decline based on the information I received not just from my friend, but from the interviewers: it is corporate…

...based on God knows what...

My suspicion based on time spent in a different industry would be trips to gentlemen's clubs with all expenses paid by the sales team...

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