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Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

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Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing you're relatively tech savvy and enjoy troubleshooting (within reason). Most people aren't, of course.

I have a friend who was complaining about Windows 10 so I set him up with Ubuntu. He's about a dumb as it gets with computers and he has never had an issue with Linux. The few things he's installed have been in the software store and he clicks the apt update once a week. He's much happier and less frustrated with Linux vs Windows.

So, in essence, he is happy because you are his IT guy? Wouldn't that be the kind of thing your parent post is talking about?

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#82
post #65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly have never used Linux in any form. There are multiple package managers, granted. However, one strength they all share is: "you usually don't get .exe or .dmg"! Absolutely! Apps are integrated and not simply add-ons as they are in Windows or Apple land. When I want to install say libreoffice or wireshark I simply ask the system to install them. I absolutely do not browse the internet and download something…

But you have to live under the wing of your distro mantainers, instead of installing whatever you want from any third party. Isn't Linux supposed to be about freedom? Yes, you can install software using tarballs, but it's not usable for 90% of users, and not because of the distribution model, but because of the lack of standardization in a good, easy to use application-installing API.

I get the base OS along with a very long list of apps with any distro. For example Arch, Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse etc - all will curate a lot of apps for me. If I want to go off piste I download the code and crack on. I have several compilers to choose from LLVM, gcc int al out of the box.

tarball installs is pretty much close to the state of Windows app installations. You have to find the bloody things, download them each time and hope you have found the right one and not a trojaned one. Each one needs its own update routine and will not be updated when the rest of the system is updated.

The Windows and Apple software distribution model is archaic compared to all Linux/BSD etc distros.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#83
post #56

The only thing about Linux I never really like is the package system. Like if you want to install a new software, you usually don’t get .exe or .dmg. If you are lucky, the developer or some fans took the time to package it. Then you can do ‘apt-get’ ‘yum’ or ‘pacman’. However, packages got stalled and sometimes don’t match the original author intent. You can also build from sources, but it takes time and you have to…

You clearly have never used Linux in any form. There are multiple package managers, granted. However, one strength they all share is: "you usually don't get .exe or .dmg"! Absolutely! Apps are integrated and not simply add-ons as they are in Windows or Apple land. When I want to install say libreoffice or wireshark I simply ask the system to install them. I absolutely do not browse the internet and download something…

> You clearly have never used Linux in any form.

Can you please edit out personal swipes from your comments here? This one would be fine without that first sentence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#84
post #61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly have never used Linux in any form. There are multiple package managers, granted. However, one strength they all share is: "you usually don't get .exe or .dmg"! Absolutely! Apps are integrated and not simply add-ons as they are in Windows or Apple land. When I want to install say libreoffice or wireshark I simply ask the system to install them. I absolutely do not browse the internet and download something…

> When I update, all my system is updated - OS, apps and all. Except for when the distro "gods" don't bother updating a package for years, so you always get the "stable" 5-year old version.

Please give me an example. The Linux kernel is about a week old on this laptop. The current version of Windows server is called 2019, the last one was 2016 (rofl)

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#85
post #67

>Year 2015 welcomed us with 134 vulnerabilities in one package alone: WebKitGTK+ WSA-2015-0002. I'm not implying that Linux is worse than Windows/MacOS proprietary/closed software - I'm just saying that the mantra that open source is more secure by definition because everyone can read the code is apparently totally wrong. Huh? Those 134 vulnerabilities were found because people can see the code. If it were closed sou…

Closed source software is not opaque, people study how it works all the time.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#86

> Android is not Linux I really, _really_ hate this statement. Android meets the only definition of 'linux' that matters IMO: it runs on a linux kernel. That's linux, full stop. That said, I do find myself agreeing with most of the points listed there. I just not sure I'd call them 'linux on the desktop' issues per se. They're wayland/xorg issues, deb/rpm/flatpack/snap issues, pulseaudio/alsa issues, gtk/qt issues, e…

I'd just like to interject for moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#87

I've been running KDE Neon on NUC for a while, and Kubuntu before that since KDE 3.5 days. But still it's not ready to become my primary desktop. The main issue for me is RDP-like (not VNC-like) remote desktop experience. Without that I'm not even gonna try. I mean the kind where I check my desktop before I leave for work, resume the session remotely from work (when compiling or whatever), and pick up when I get home…

I've been quite happy with NoMachine[0]. It has probably even more options than RDP (file transfer and drive sharing options, various graphics and audio options, etc.) You can even watch videos through it if your connection is decent. You can pick up an existing X session or start a new one. [0]: https://www.nomachine.com

I just tried, again. Even on LAN (same switch in fact) the performance is worse than what I got when I was RDP'ing to my desktop in Norway from a hotel in Hawaii. And it didn't forward audio at all.

I'll check it out from work tomorrow, but so far it's usable but not exactly great when compared to RDP.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#88
post #54

Linux as the open-sourced work of brilliant software developers wouldn't power most servers if it sucked. But could designing good desktops need more than just good code? Good kernels successfully run code. Good desktops successfully help users. I guess different goals require different designs? Edit: to clarify, I didn't mean desktops don't require well designed software. Just had in mind that a desktop also have to…

"Good kernels successfully run code. Good desktops successfully help users. I guess different goals require different designs?"

A good desktop needs to run code successful, otherwise every small bug can make a big annoying glitch.

I guess it is more a question of optimizing.

The hardcore linux user uses the terminal and a text editor mainly and kind of despise GUIs. Linux seems to be optimized for them as they are the most active ones using it. And this use case works perfectly.

GUIs are mostly a thing that was added because of the "newbs" but does not get used so much by the core - so they suck as the core group are the ones who know how to fix things. This was the situation when I started to explore the linux world and some things changed, but not much.

But Linux main problems are hardware issues, which is partly because of linux enforced OpenSource nature which wants drivers to be opensource and included in the kernel. And traditional industry does not like that approach. And given the small marketshare of linux desktop ... they don't really have to.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#89
Whoa this article has brought up some painful memories and I agree with so much, but yet I can't imagine using Windows, it pisses me off even more.

> Most distros don't allow you to easily set up a server with e.g. such a configuration: Samba, SMTP/POP3, Apache HTTP Auth and FTP where all users are virtual. LDAP is a PITA. Authentication against MySQL/any other DB is also a PITA.

Just thinking about it gives me ptsd, I do not want a thousand users or folders on my system, they're a pain to migrate, it's really a PITA to make everything virtual. Please someone give me a nice short guide how to set up dovecot so that it stores all e-mails in postgresql?

> KDE is spiralling out of control (besides, its code quality is beyond horrible - several crucial parts of the KDE SC, like KMail/akonadi, are barely functional): people refuse to maintain literally hundreds of KDE packages.

KMail has had so many bugs for me, I should report but man, it's such a pain in the ass. Such ridiculous bugs as well (e.g. connection loss spawning 1000 error boxes that my GPU can't handle the layered transparency.

> ! Linux security/permissions management is a bloody mess: PAM, SeLinux, Udev, HAL (replaced with udisk/upower/libudev), PolicyKit, ConsoleKit and usual Unix permissions (/etc/passwd, /etc/group) all have their separate incompatible permissions management systems spread all over the file system. Quite often people cannot use their digital devices unless they switch to a super user.

In theory they're all separate things, but they interleave so much, there has to be a better system.

> ! No equivalent of some hardcore Windows software like ArchiCAD/3ds Max/Adobe Premier/Adobe Photoshop/Corel Draw/DVD authoring applications/etc. Home and enterprise users just won't bother installing Linux until they can get their work done.

I really miss Solidworks/Fusion 360, there's no effort at all to port those :(

> ! Open source drivers have certain, sometimes very serious problems (Intel-!, NVIDIA and AMD):

Flickering windows, low FPS, laggy videos, everyday struggle :( Changing compositor OpenGL mode fixes it though.

> ! An insane number of regressions in the Linux kernel, when with every new kernel release some hardware can stop working inexplicably. I have personally reported two serious audio playback regressions, which have been consequently resolved, however most users don't know how to file bugs, how to bisect regressions, how to identify faulty components.

I was affected by this too, qemu was broken for me for almost half a year.

There's one thing that's very subjective in the article, even if the author claims otherwise. I like to call it the Winduslexia, it doesn't occur for anyone other than previous Windows users:

> All native Linux filesystems are case sensitive about filenames which utterly confuses most users. This wonderful peculiarity doesn't have any sensible rationale. Less than 0.01% of users in the Linux world depend on this feature.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#90
I wish that there would be one unified API for creating desktop programs on Linux. Right now it's somewhat coalesced on GTK/GNOME and Qt/KDE, though there are a number of others out there.

I use Linux in a VM for very hobbyist level embedded development (think Arduino and the like). Driver problems are non-existent, all of the technical problems are non-issues in this environment. The problems that I see are all to do with the lack of a common set of services for building a GUI application.

Why do my text editor and Arduino IDE use different file pickers? It's because my text editor uses the KDE API, but the Arduino IDE uses something else. GIMP uses yet a different file picker from the other two. LibreOffice uses yet another file picker, that's similar to Kate's but slightly different. I'm sure that installing Atom and VS Code would introduce me to two more file pickers.

The reason for this is that each of these programs uses a different GUI toolkit and, as a result, has a different concept of what a file picker needs to look like. Some of them don't even agree on which order the Open and Cancel buttons should be.

Network transparency is another thing that suffers from this. On Windows, you can basically use a UNC path (\\server\share\path\to\file.txt) almost anywhere because the entire system from the file picker all the way down to the file APIs knows about UNC paths. In Linux, KDE apps do this one way, GNOME apps do it a different way, and command line tools need you to somehow mount the target server before you can even think about it. I last seriously used Windows about 14 years ago and I still miss this greatly.

None of these are insurmountable problems, but it needs someone to make a decision about the one true way to do things.

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