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Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

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Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#81

Post by bayesian_horse »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #46
bayesian_horse wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense some anti-isreali sentiment among somewhat valid criticism right there. The issue is complicated by Israel being a US-ally so technically it's not that much of an issue of Israeli "agents" talking to Americans.

What of the criticism is not valid, so it can only be explained by "anti-Israeli sentiment"? Is someone who is critical of some of the doings of the NSA or CIA "anti-American"? The issue is complicated by antisemitism being very real, just like there's people who hate America as such. But there is no need to jump to that, especially when you haven't even said what in your estimation makes the criticism only "somewhat…

"Likud hard-liner apartheid state" is a pretty strong hint.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#82

Post by bayesian_horse »

meowface wrote: post #53
bayesian_horse wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense some anti-isreali sentiment among somewhat valid criticism right there. The issue is complicated by Israel being a US-ally so technically it's not that much of an issue of Israeli "agents" talking to Americans.

That's partly why this is such an effective tactic for Israeli (government or private) intelligence. The presence, or mere accusation, of anti-Israeli government sentiment can be pretty easily spun into accusations of anti-Israeli and/or anti-Semitic beliefs. So it can kind of create a chilling effect on these discussions in general, like in this comment sub-thread. There are so many outlandish conspiracy theories ou…

The difference between criticism of the Israeli government and Antisemitism is the simplification of the problem and putting the blame solely on the Israelis without making an effort.

"Apartheid state" doesn't make it better, either.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#83

Post by AsyncAwait »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #81
PavlovsCat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What of the criticism is not valid, so it can only be explained by "anti-Israeli sentiment"? Is someone who is critical of some of the doings of the NSA or CIA "anti-American"? The issue is complicated by antisemitism being very real, just like there's people who hate America as such. But there is no need to jump to that, especially when you haven't even said what in your estimation makes the criticism only "somewhat…

"Likud hard-liner apartheid state" is a pretty strong hint.

Considering that South Africa views many of the current Israeli government's actions as similar to what they had[1], I am not sure "apartheid" is such a wrong word to use here.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Forced_removals

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#84

Post by abalone »

avip wrote: post #80
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New York Times identified Lambert as Aharon Almog-Assouline, a former Israeli security official living in the plush Tel Aviv suburb of Ramat Hasharon. Maybe not "spy" but ex-security official at least. Not sure how thinly that's splitting hairs though.

By this pretty liberal phrasing I'm also "an Israeli spy".

Not unless you are doing actual spying.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#85

Post by therein »

anon007 wrote: post #14

I personally was approached by what I now believe was an undercover spy agent in San Francisco. I believe he might have been Israeli. How we got there is a long story. But, the person (agent) came to a coffee shop that I frequented and made himself very visible talking audibly about certain areas that were my interest. I'm a very outgoing person so after over-hearing him by the second or third encounter there, I appr…

Did he have colored cards that he used during conversation?

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#86

Post by PavlovsCat »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #81
PavlovsCat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What of the criticism is not valid, so it can only be explained by "anti-Israeli sentiment"? Is someone who is critical of some of the doings of the NSA or CIA "anti-American"? The issue is complicated by antisemitism being very real, just like there's people who hate America as such. But there is no need to jump to that, especially when you haven't even said what in your estimation makes the criticism only "somewhat…

"Likud hard-liner apartheid state" is a pretty strong hint.

For anti-Israel sentiment? Leibovitz and others also dropped pretty strong hints, but you can hardly call them anti-Israel, and Desmond Tutu also urged people to recognize Israeli as being an apartheid state. When the shoe fits, it's time to stop buggering messengers.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.720653

> "In general, Israeli society is a healthy society, and the majority of it is sane and aims for a Jewish, democratic and liberal country," Ya'alon said. "But to my great sorrow, extremist and dangerous elements have taken over Israel and the Likud Party and are shaking the foundations and threatening to hurt its residents."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.720715

> Responding to the resignation of Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon earlier in the day, Barak said that it "should be a red light for all of us regarding what's going on in the government."

> "Life-sustaining Zionism and the seeds of fascism cannot live together," Barak told a Channel 10 interviewer.

> Ya'alon's resignation is "the end of a chain that began with the case of the soldier who shot [a wounded Palestinian assailant to death]," Barak said. "Such incidents give us an X-ray image that is opposed to the will of the people.

> "What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements. And it's just the beginning."

> To illustrate his point, Barak referred to legislation promoted by members of the coalition, including the law to lift the parliamentary immunity of Knesset members who allegedly support terrorism and a bill to impose Israeli law on Israelis living in the West Bank.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#87

Post by mprev »

TomasSedovic wrote: post #65
mprev wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve clearly never had a stalker. The behaviour sounds almost exactly like how my stalker inveigled his way into my life and then behaved when I cut him out.

I would consider stalking closer to "harassment" than "hitting on someone".

Yes, of course, I can see how it looks like I conflated the two. But, I mean, it started out as being hit on, I guess.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#88

Post by mprev »

avip wrote: post #36

To clarify: NSO is a private company, mostly owned by US firm. The involvement of "Israel" in whatever NSO is doing is as follows: 1. As a vendor of security sensitive products, any NSO deal would be approved by Israel's MOD. 2. They naturally employ loads of secret service "graduates" because it's good for business. Consequently, calling an apparently clumsy NSO employee "an Israeli spy" comes across as kind of fake…

I'm not saying it's totally equivalent but the story told in "Confessions on an economic hitman" suggest that it's common for government agencies to use private firms in order to allow for plausible deniability, amongst other things.

Now, that book has been denounced by some but large parts of it seem plausible.

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#89

Post by klmr »

anon007 wrote: post #14

I personally was approached by what I now believe was an undercover spy agent in San Francisco. I believe he might have been Israeli. How we got there is a long story. But, the person (agent) came to a coffee shop that I frequented and made himself very visible talking audibly about certain areas that were my interest. I'm a very outgoing person so after over-hearing him by the second or third encounter there, I appr…

> Note, the source here might be a biased here

That’s putting it mildly: I’m entirely aware that there’s a concerted campaign in the UK to smear Corbyn by fabricating a story from out-of-context quotes and, despite not being a fan of Corbyn, I’m entirely on board with the idea that he’s being unjustly targeted and probably isn’t actually antisemitic. But so far there’s no evidence that Israel is behind this effort. A more likely explanation is that he’s a thorn in the side of the Tories and the conservative-leaning establishment media, and the campaign successfully undermined Labour’s (and specifically Corbyn’s) public support (which the polls clearly reflect: they’re losing out agains the most incompetent and least-liked UK government this generation has seen).

There’s no need for Israeli operatives to get involved, and considering the potential fallout if this got out, it would seem to be a risky undertaking. Much easier to publicly denounce Corbyn, as both Netanyahu and the Israeli ambassador to the UK have done (along with the Foreign Ministry, if I remember correctly).

Re: Undercover spy exposed in NYC was one of many

#90

Post by bayesian_horse »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #83
bayesian_horse wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Likud hard-liner apartheid state" is a pretty strong hint.

Considering that South Africa views many of the current Israeli government's actions as similar to what they had[1], I am not sure "apartheid" is such a wrong word to use here. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Forced_removals

In my opinion it is one thing to compare Israels policies to Apartheid, it is another to equate and judge them.
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