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When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

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Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#81

Post by dkokelley »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #35
dkokelley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Where are these devices for entering Congress or the Whitehouse if they are so safe?" Jackpot. Part of the trouble is that the policy makers don't have to swallow their own medicine. They have private jets and political connections that place them above their own laws. It's not even that they are "above" the law. They simply write laws that won't involve them.

As much as I enjoy picking apart irrational government actions, you're stretching it here. For example, (deceased) Senator Ted Kennedy claimed to have been on the list and detained at airports. See https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/No_Fly_List#F... : In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeat…

The fact that he was able to remove himself from the list seems to validate my argument. The senator was able to appeal directly to the Homeland Security Secretary.

From the article: Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens": "How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#82

Post by yummyfajitas »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #78
yummyfajitas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument betrays a lack of understanding of radiation physics. Think of each cell in your body as a dice. When a cell is hit by radiation, the dice is rolled - you get cancer if any dice comes up 6 (these are billion-sided dice). The radiation dose is the number of dice rolls you need to make. Now, under which circumstance is a roll of 6 more likely? If you roll 100 dice 1 time each (traditional x-ray), or 1 dic…

Smaller doses over time are safer than a large dose. Time to fix things up. Concentrating the radiation has a negative effect. Edit: Maybe this is incorrect when it comes to cancer risk, but I had the impression it still mattered, with multiple impacts in the same area of DNA causing things to be more likely to permanently break. Unless that is extremely unlikely to happen at all at this level of dose. Still, these m…

When radiation causes a significant amount of cell death, yes. I.e., if you are going to have 2-3% of your cells killed (by heat, radiation, alchohol, whatever), it's better if it happens slowly over time than all at once.

Backscattered X-rays are not remotely near that point.

edit: Just want to respond to this: I had the impression it still mattered, with multiple impacts in the same area of DNA causing things to be more likely to permanently break.

This is called the multiphoton effect. It's real, but it's more important for radiation by low frequency radiation (e.g., cell phone microwaves). You can observe this in gases with high powered lasers or microwave resonating cavities. Weird things happen in this regime, such as stabilization (more radiation -> less ionization).

I suppose you could have molecular effects from multiple photons (e.g., one photon damages the DNA, a second damages the repair mechanism), but this is vanishingly unlikely at the doses we are discussing.

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#83

Post by retroafroman »

ck2 wrote: post #17
lylejohnson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So would the President choose the radiation naked picture method or the deep groping method for his daughters? I'd seriously like that question asked at some point by the press. No one in the press has the guts to ask him this. But man, I'd love to see that too.

To be fair, not just the President but also any Congressperson/Senator that is interviewed for the rest of the year on any program. Which one do you want your mother/children experiencing, naked picture radiation, deep groping, or would you instead choose the $10,000 fine for leaving (and possibly being put on the no-fly list forever)?

Utah Congreessman Jason Chaffetz has made quite a big deal about getting rid of the backscatter x-ray machines in the past, when they were first being implemented

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#84

Post by Semiapies »

j79 wrote: post #77

I opted out during my last flight. After everything I had read, I decided I needed to experience it first hand. I was expecting a huge scene, with the TSA agent screaming, "OPT OUT! We've got an opt out here!", and then being manhandled, groped, and basically demeaned in front of other passengers. After removing my shoes (the one part of airport security theatre I absolutely hate) and placing my belongings in those g…

"I have to stand in front of this thing all day!"

You know, I never thought about that. Considering how x-ray technicians stand behind lead guards and aren't scanning people rapid-fire all day, I wonder what the dosage the TSA folks are getting.

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#85

Post by yummyfajitas »

ohyes wrote: post #75
yummyfajitas wrote: post #18

Just curious, does anyone have some hard evidence that the MWBS is a cancer risk? I ask this simply because anti-X activists have pushed junk science claims of the form "X causes CANCER" many times [1], so I'm a little dubious. I don't think fighting civil liberties violations with junk science is a useful tactic, if that is indeed what is happening here. [1] For example, feminists pushed the "silicone gel implants c…

edit: s/mwbs/bs/g; per comment below Well, X-rays cause cancer. BS uses X-rays So it is a cancer risk. And it is a little more founded than someone randomly saying' this causes cancer'. In terms of risk... This says dental x-rays are about 2-3 mrem: http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/dental.htm This says BS is about .006-.009 mrem: http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/backscatter.htm Keep in mind that under cer…

(This doesn't take into account other real issues, like 'what if the machine breaks down and we start blasting people with focused beams of radiation'...

What if my flashlight breaks down and I start blasting people with focused beams of laser light? What if my cell phone breaks down and the microwaves melt the brains of everyone within 6 feet of me?

I don't know a great deal about the engineering of MWBS, but I see no reason to believe that your fear is any more likely than mine. Most machines just don't work that way. Do you have evidence that MWBS is different?

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#86

Post by Semiapies »

ck2 wrote: post #5

How dumb are people to not realize it's radiation one way or another? Do they think it's "magic" they can see through your clothes? How can there be a class action lawsuit against printer ink, but not against radiating you for no reason with devices that have no track record? Where are these devices for entering Congress or the Whitehouse if they are so safe? So would the President choose the radiation naked picture…

The EM spectrum is a big thing; presumably they thought it was infrared or something harmless like that since there aren't radiation hazard symbols everywhere.

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#87

Post by Tomek_ »

Sorry for being cynical, but for me this story reads more or less like: there's a guy who didn't have enough balls to opt out only by himself and thus decided to find others to join him (he even brought some papers to show), and the others were some family where a woman, "fortunately"(?) had a cancer before - it's rather sad.

Re: When we got to the scanner, I opted out. Then they opted out.

#90

Post by seldo »

khafra wrote: post #80
j79 wrote: post #77

I opted out during my last flight. After everything I had read, I decided I needed to experience it first hand. I was expecting a huge scene, with the TSA agent screaming, "OPT OUT! We've got an opt out here!", and then being manhandled, groped, and basically demeaned in front of other passengers. After removing my shoes (the one part of airport security theatre I absolutely hate) and placing my belongings in those g…

Nice to get a detailed user report. One question--what clubs do you go to, to get extreme gropings?

I wondered the same thing. My first thought was "some gay clubs are like that", but I do not wish to make any unwelcome assumptions about anyone's sexuality :-)
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