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The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

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Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#81
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off I don't think you can make that determination, (was it worth it), only Snowden himself can. Second, while the toll was high for him, those of us who have sworn an oath to the Constitution take that oath very seriously and I applaud him for being one of the rare ones with enough conviction to act on his beliefs instead of just spouting them. Third I am eternally grateful to Snowden because without him all my…

Any other things the public hasn't caught up on that you care to share?

I will try to respond when my work day is over.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#82
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's probably being down-voted for saying erroneous things like > The high conviction rate is a result of extremely high maximum sentences. People who are 100% innocent often plead guilty after being threatened with a 30-year prison sentence that would be only 1 or 2 years under local law. That's erroneous because very few federal defendants actually face such long sentences, so those that do so pleading guilty is no…

When you say "he was looking at maybe 6 or 7 years if things went as favorably as possible for prosecutors" Do you know this for a fact? Because the way I understand it is, he was facing multiple decades in prison IF all charges stuck. And once you got to trial, all charges can stick. It has happened. So he was facing 35 years. So saying he wasn't is just wrong. Your 6-7 years is 'probably'. I think what your saying…

Suppose I toss a brick through the window of a government office overnight when no one is inside, causing $101 worth of damage. I could be charged with felony destruction of government property, a crime with the statute says has a maximum sentence of 10 years and a $250k find.

Am I facing 10 years in prison? No! That's because the way sentencing works under the Federal Sentencing Guidelines is that the sentence range is looked up in a table whose rows range from short sentences up to the maximum (10 years in this case). The biggest factor in that lookup is how much monetary damage I caused. At $101 I'm going go get a row with a sentencing range that is something like up to a year or so.

To push it up to where my sentencing row actually includes 10 years I'd have to have done a lot more damage, such as blown up the building.

(There are other factors that also go into picking the row, such as if I have prior convictions for similar crimes).

When I'm indicted, though, the DOJ press release will tout that I've been charged with a crime with up to 10 years and $250k fines as penalties. They'd say the same thing when indicting someone who blew up the whole building. Their press releases make no attempt to convey the sentence the person is actually facing based on the facts the DOJ is alleging about that person's alleged crime.

In the case of someone charged with multiple crimes there is another factor that leads to inflated numbers. The same underlying acts can often support more than one charge. Similar crimes are grouped together for sentencing under the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, and if you are charged with and convicted of more than one crime from the same group based on the same underlying acts, you are only sentenced for one of them.

Unfortunately, this grouping is often ignored in press releases and reporting about potential sentencing.

In most cases, those multi-decade numbers you see people talk are due to one or both of the aforementioned issues: (1) not taking into account what the person is actually alleged to have done, and (2) ignoring grouping if the person is charged with more than one thing.

Here is a detailed analysis of Swartz's possible sentencing [1]. The earlier article by the same author looking at what he was charged with is also interesting [2].

[1] http://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aa...

[2] http://volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#83
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's probably being down-voted for saying erroneous things like > The high conviction rate is a result of extremely high maximum sentences. People who are 100% innocent often plead guilty after being threatened with a 30-year prison sentence that would be only 1 or 2 years under local law. That's erroneous because very few federal defendants actually face such long sentences, so those that do so pleading guilty is no…

When you say "he was looking at maybe 6 or 7 years if things went as favorably as possible for prosecutors" Do you know this for a fact? Because the way I understand it is, he was facing multiple decades in prison IF all charges stuck. And once you got to trial, all charges can stick. It has happened. So he was facing 35 years. So saying he wasn't is just wrong. Your 6-7 years is 'probably'. I think what your saying…

There's no way to know it as a fact because the judge is legally allowed to apply any sentence up to that maximum. His link shows that most judges follow the guidelines, and vary rarely go over them. Intelligent decisions are ones that are made after understanding probabilities. Unfortunately Aaron decided to take the guaranteed outcome of suicide over the small chance that he'd serve multiple decades. I think we all can agree that that was not the right choice.

We see this sort of "up to" crap all the time in our culture. It's still misleading. Accurate, but fundamentally misleading and wrong.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive noticed this too alot lately and I've actually started to question if our ideals are really moral. I think we have a very serious conversation ahead of us as a culture. Are we the bad guys?

Well that's interesting but its a little bit different from what I am talking about because I personally don't question most of the supposed American ideals (at least as I see them). Really I'm talking about actions rather than ideals.

Is there anything more “bad guy” than espousing high ideals which run contrary to centuries of actions? Still at some point you’d hope that people notice the disconnect and feel disturbed.

“Hans... are we the baddies?”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#86
post #15
post #10

This guy did OK out of being a whistleblower (barring the prison sentence): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-birkenfeld/whistl...

you cant put a price on time behind prison bars and away from your family. what if during that time his father died? was 100million "worth it"?

30 months in prison is about 11 years of full time work (40h a week, 50 weeks a year). Not only will he be extremely rich but his family and children will never have to work again in their lives. Totally worth it.

If a family member dies while you're in prison you're usually allowed to attend their funeral unless you're an extreme risk.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#87
post #26

This reads like an advertisement for the FBI. A bigger story is how Obama removed protections and actively attacked whistle blowers after promising the most transparent government ever. That had true toll.

You mean like when Obama got legislation passed to protect them? https://www.whistleblowers.org/news/obama-signs-whistleblowe...

Didn't help Snowden much.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've avoided that conversation for two hundred years, why is it ahead of us now? If anything, blind patriotism makes it easier to ignore.

Every single time I mention something good about any country other than the US to my relatives they get SUPER angry and shout "Then why the F * don't you move there". It is so confusing to me. Not saying I love the US but if someone did... shouldn't they want to improve it?

They don't want it to be good they want to feel good about it. Introspection makes them angry. This toxic anti-intellectualism is sadly common and has been promoted by people in power for ages. One would think an advertising culture is to blame but given that it happens even in the absence of it it totally predates it. Probably tribalistic.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#89
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ruin your life if it guaranteed I'd know your name and mention you 6 years later as an example of someone who ruined their life without achieving anything?

You're not the only one talking about him, and that very much contradicts 'not achieving anything'. In any case, your individual perspective being contrary to my claim isn't anything meaningful here, because there isn't an impactful person on this planet who hasn't had their accomplishments trivialized by somebody.

I'm not trivializing his accomplishments. You're the one who's implying he hasn't accomplished anything beyond being an example people bring up in HN comments.

Would that be worth ruining your life? I'm asking for your perspective.

Re: The Personal Toll of Whistle-Blowing

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "he was looking at maybe 6 or 7 years if things went as favorably as possible for prosecutors" Do you know this for a fact? Because the way I understand it is, he was facing multiple decades in prison IF all charges stuck. And once you got to trial, all charges can stick. It has happened. So he was facing 35 years. So saying he wasn't is just wrong. Your 6-7 years is 'probably'. I think what your saying…

There's no way to know it as a fact because the judge is legally allowed to apply any sentence up to that maximum. His link shows that most judges follow the guidelines, and vary rarely go over them. Intelligent decisions are ones that are made after understanding probabilities. Unfortunately Aaron decided to take the guaranteed outcome of suicide over the small chance that he'd serve multiple decades. I think we all…

So you are saying: Judges never convict people to the maximum sentence? I'm sorry, your point isn't very clear. It's a bit muddled.

Or are you saying that his probably of being sentenced to the maximum was low? If so, how low? And when does it stop being 'intelligent' to consider a small probability with a horribly outcome? I mean, in your intelligent opinion.

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