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Airbnb and security camera disclosure

jeffreybigham.com

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Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#81

Post by AlexandrB »

wil421 wrote: post #34
telecuda wrote: post #5

After a host made a suspicious/creepy comment about our stay, I started logging into host routers (creds usually printed on the device) and look at what other devices are connected. The camera may not be on that network, or not networked at all, but it’s a little peace of mind.

There is an app called Fing on iPhones and maybe Android. It will scan the WiFi you are on and give you a bunch of information. There’s also a few more network functions you can do. It recognizes phones, my plex server, and a brother printer at my house to name a few. No router login required just the WiFi password.

> There is an app called Fing on iPhones and maybe Android.

This seemed like a really useful tool; I looked it up on the app store and - uh oh - it's free. Screenshots don't seem to show any ads and there's no IAP, so how do they make their money? Taking a look at their privacy policy[1], they collect:

> Information on MAC addresses and Wi-Fi networks you collect through the App or the Box. Please note that this Privacy Policy does not exempt you from any obligations you may incur should you collect other individuals’ personal data.

So basically, Fing will help you find devices on your network, and then store what it finds forever for other uses. And if you accidentally reveal some PII to Fing while scanning someone's network that's your problem.

This is the state of "apps". Collect everything, store everything, disavow any responsibility for anything. One of the first phone apps I used was a G-meter that just read the accelerometer and showed you a graph of your acceleration. It was a neat little toy. Today that app would send all accelerometer data back to some server farm in case there's anything that can be mined from that data.

[1] https://www.fing.io/fing-privacy-policy/

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#82

Post by rhinoceraptor »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #71
wil421 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an app called Fing on iPhones and maybe Android. It will scan the WiFi you are on and give you a bunch of information. There’s also a few more network functions you can do. It recognizes phones, my plex server, and a brother printer at my house to name a few. No router login required just the WiFi password.

And using Fing (works better on Android b/c on iOS it can't access raw MAC addresses) is perfectly legal. The fact that a default password is used or the password is posted on the router is not in any way legal permission to access it as a short-term guest. Look at Aaron Swartz's case if you don't know how readily prosecutors will (ab)use the CFAA.

Someone who didn't know to change their default Linksys password is probably not going to report the crime.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#83

Post by pc86 »

DangerousPie wrote: post #44
ceocoder wrote: post #37

There are two reasons I’ve decided to not use Airbnb again - specially when I’m overseas. 1) fear of getting locked out of Airbnb. I stayed in an Airbnb in Dublin in late 2017, place was OK, not too great -cheap ikea bed, cheap ikea couch, heater that was either tundra or Sahara. However getting in to this place required memorizing 8 digit number or having your phone on you. After that stay I genuinely appreciated 24…

Why not just write the number on a piece of paper?!

Because then they would only have one (completely valid!) criticism.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#84

Post by RankingMember »

rjf72 wrote: post #49
RankingMember wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, how about one rule: No cameras in living spaces. If you want to make money using AirBnB, you understand that you can't use cameras inside living spaces. I don't think we need to invent a new bureaucracy to deal with this.

The system I described was much more akin to something like the Better Business Bureau than a new bureaucracy. It tends to be a way to get things done in a way where both consumers and businesses want to obey them (as is rather the definition of opt-in systems). For instance I just checked the BBB entry for AirBnB [1]. It turns out that even though they aren't affiliated with the BBB, they are rapidly responding to c…

Is there anyone that still takes the BBB seriously? They operate as a pay-to-play scheme, charging money in exchange for their approval in an outright quid pro quo sales operation.

https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/30/news/better-business-bureau...

Beyond that, the advent of modern communication has taken a huge bite out of whatever relevancy they might've had. Why complain to the BBB when you can complain via Yelp/Google Reviews/Facebook, etc. and have a bigger impact.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#85

Post by pc86 »

drm237 wrote: post #73
alkonaut wrote: post #39

AirBnB should launch a surveillance/alarm product that is a combined alarm and camera, which allows the host to look at camera images when the property property is empty ONLY (i.e. when the guest has left the property and armed the alarm) It would need to have e.g. a mechanically closed lens that opens when the alarm is armed in the home (so no one is home). This product could also include other helpful things for Ai…

Why would anyone want a security camera that only worked when a property was empty? Wouldn't that defeat the point of having a security camera?

I think the point in this example is that you can compare pre-check-in and post-check-out photos and demonstrably show damage or (visible) theft occurred during a specific reservation without impact the privacy of the guests.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#86

Post by izacus »

The fact that AirBnB even allows recording inside of the rented appartments is utterly mind-boggling to me. I always assumed they'd ban recording or guests outright. Your home (even a temporarily rented one) is pretty much the primary place where you should expect complete privacy at all times.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#87

Post by pc86 »

larrywright wrote: post #80
pc86 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty big oversimplification of the law. If you're not hiding the presence of cameras, they're not capturing private areas or those entrances directly, and you're not doing anything with that footage after the fact, it's unlikely to ever be an issue. There was an /r/legaladvice thread a few weeks ago where someone's security camera recorded a cleaning lady's 16 year old daughter changing, which certainly h…

To be fair, I did qualify my statement with a “could”. IANAL. This likely depends on where it happens as well, and how aggressive the legal system is there. I know that I’ve heard of cases where a high school official was attempting to handle a situation where a student was distributing nude pictures of another student via their phone, and because the teacher forwarded the message to themselves so that they could sho…

Absolutely, the most common refrain on LA when anything related to this is involved on someone's device is always some version of "don't delete it, don't open it, don't touch the device, get a lawyer yesterday and have them talk to law enforcement."

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#88

Post by decebalus1 »

anc84 wrote: post #25
rjzzleep wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Germany, and I have dark hair. When I went to file a police report the tall blonde police officer, he and his colleagues were mocking me in the back. I ended up telling them off and will report it to the tax office. Which, while nasty seems to be only thing that will get that guy into trouble, Police at least doesn't care even though he violates a dozen laws including standard German privacy practice.

I am calling bullshit. There is very little chance that German police in Hamburg would not consider those alligations serious. Lots of Germans have black hair. Few Germans are tall and blonde. German police will file your case in any case.

While an anecdote doesn't prove much, a distant relative of mine with a more Mediterranean appearance was detained by police in Munchen on allegations that the bicycle he was riding was stolen as he allegedly fit the description of a bike thief. After proving them wrong they mocked him saying something like 'how did someone like you managed to land such a high paying job? Do your colleagues like working with you? I mean you know.. considering... etc.. etc..'. I don't know what happened with his complaints post-factum but it's not the first time I hear about racist/xenophobe behavior by law enforcement in Germany.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#89

Post by alkonaut »

drm237 wrote: post #73
alkonaut wrote: post #39

AirBnB should launch a surveillance/alarm product that is a combined alarm and camera, which allows the host to look at camera images when the property property is empty ONLY (i.e. when the guest has left the property and armed the alarm) It would need to have e.g. a mechanically closed lens that opens when the alarm is armed in the home (so no one is home). This product could also include other helpful things for Ai…

Why would anyone want a security camera that only worked when a property was empty? Wouldn't that defeat the point of having a security camera?

The camera is on when the property is supposed to be empty, that is, when the alarm is armed and the guest is not there. The camera is for monitoring the property with a guarantee that the guests are not monitored. This is similar to how a hotel works. I expect the hotel management to be able to go in to my hotel room when I'm not there (to repair something, clean etc.) but I also expect complete privacy when I'm in there.

I have cameras in my house that are used together with motion detectors as part of my home alarm system. If the alarm goes off I can see whether the alarm was triggered by my christmas tree falling over or by a burglar. They aren't used when the alarm isn't on. If I were to rent my house out on airbnb I'd probably cover or disconnect the cameras, becauuse I couldn't make a guest trust that they are only part of the alarm system. That's why a product that guaranteed it would be good.

Re: Airbnb and security camera disclosure

#90

Post by decebalus1 »

DangerousPie wrote: post #44
ceocoder wrote: post #37

There are two reasons I’ve decided to not use Airbnb again - specially when I’m overseas. 1) fear of getting locked out of Airbnb. I stayed in an Airbnb in Dublin in late 2017, place was OK, not too great -cheap ikea bed, cheap ikea couch, heater that was either tundra or Sahara. However getting in to this place required memorizing 8 digit number or having your phone on you. After that stay I genuinely appreciated 24…

Why not just write the number on a piece of paper?!

because if you get mugged abroad and that piece of paper goes away along with your wallet, you are shit out of luck. A hotel can give you a lot of support in situations when you're stranded abroad. On top of granting you access to the room, they can call people on your behalf, provide a wellfare check in case you've gone missing, etc..
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