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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

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Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#81

Post by baxtr »

AchieveLife wrote: post #75
vinceguidry wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I added the daughters and princesses aside. The people of Hong Kong are not going to use Chan's example to try to be Jackie Chan. That's not the point. They're going to look carefully at their hero and decide that certain traits of his, like extreme courage and willingness to be brave, and choose to adopt them, just like a child does with their heroes. If you or I went over to Hong Kong, and told them to…

Hey Vince I think we agree with you regarding the inspiration that Chan brings to his people. There is more than inspiration, sweat, tears, and blood that plays the part of viral success as Chan has achieved. Luck and opportunity are the missing pieces. The phrase "if Chan can do it then anyone can" is victim to survivorship bias ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ) To conclude: Chan achieved awesome t…

Oh man, I wish more comments started like yours. “Hey Vince” sounds nice and respectful, and, even personal on an anonymous platform

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#82

Post by smacktoward »

geggam wrote: post #79
dbingham wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the previous commenter was reacting to in your post was not your defense of Chan an his memoir as inspirational, per se, but rather the specific phrase "If he can do it anyone can" as ignoring the fact that Chan -- and celebrities like him -- are extreme outliers, and extremely lucky for their success. Yes, Chan worked his ass off. But to have the success he did, he also had to have an insane amount of l…

This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" I suppose it is easier to write and also easier to dismiss other people doing something you simply don't want to put in the effort to do so or are too scared to do. of course this is just my observation

> This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed"

Of course you do, that's called survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

You see the one person who tried to seize the opportunity and succeeded, because by succeeding they became famous. You don't see all the people who tried just as hard to seize the opportunity and failed, because by failing they remained obscure.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#83

Post by madeuptempacct »

fao_ wrote: post #76
madeuptempacct wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who thinks you can go through BUDS/RASP/RIP/Q-Course/whatever injured and "fight through it" is a delusional fanboy. The reality is that it has very little to do with willpower and everything to do with your physical condition before the course and your genetic potential. If you get hurt, you are out, and you are checking gates for 12 hours a day or go regular infantry. Yes, there are second chances, but that'…

all of your stuff for at least the last month has been shadowbanned. idk why.

Thanks for the heads up. I have no idea why either, but I appreciate knowing.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#84

Post by stcredzero »

vinceguidry wrote: post #51
stcredzero wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just read the article, and I didn't see any mention of human trafficking. The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons. I think that summarizes the constant emotional undertones in this article. This article strikes me as a deliberate re-spinning of a story meant to be triumphal, making it the sneakiest…

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line.

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude.

Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking.

My own family history has a lot to do with indentured servitude. If you watch Korean historical dramas, you'll find the condition described as being a "servant" but at other times, the same condition will be described as being a "slave."

In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line? I went to a boarding school where they didn't let us off school grounds without getting leave.

Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line.

How about physical coercion? Did 19 year old Jackie Chan consider himself a slave? Was he kept in a place through physical coercion and torture? Did he dream of jailbreaking himself out of his barracks and wire-cutting the fence and running to freedom while being chased by guards prepared to main or shoot him? Or was he thinking of it as working through a contractual debt?

The line should be firmly held at physical coercion. As always, there will be people who skirt the lines by coming up with things that have the same effect, but which are "technically not coercion."

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#85

Post by makotech222 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

> If he could do it in the situation he grew up in, anyone can.

If this were true, everyone would have. People don't just go through life wanting to be poor and miserable. The system we live in only allows very few people to avoid living in misery.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#86

Post by stcredzero »

alistairSH wrote: post #58
vinceguidry wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Chan was sold into servitude while most of were still in primary school. The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract.

Wasn't the contract entered into by his parents?

The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.

Was he kept under lock and key by armed guards willing to main or kill him to keep him from escaping? Or did he primarily think of it as working through a contract his parents had signed him up for?

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#87

Post by vinceguidry »

AchieveLife wrote: post #75
vinceguidry wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I added the daughters and princesses aside. The people of Hong Kong are not going to use Chan's example to try to be Jackie Chan. That's not the point. They're going to look carefully at their hero and decide that certain traits of his, like extreme courage and willingness to be brave, and choose to adopt them, just like a child does with their heroes. If you or I went over to Hong Kong, and told them to…

Hey Vince I think we agree with you regarding the inspiration that Chan brings to his people. There is more than inspiration, sweat, tears, and blood that plays the part of viral success as Chan has achieved. Luck and opportunity are the missing pieces. The phrase "if Chan can do it then anyone can" is victim to survivorship bias ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ) To conclude: Chan achieved awesome t…

Hi. I'll admit to getting a bit frustrated because I seem to need to repeat the same point over and over again, and the responses aren't addressing the point made.

Yes, you need luck and opportunity to become Jackie Chan. But there's more ways to be successful than becoming Jackie Chan. He can inspire them to be themselves and not let their situations get them down.

That's what is meant by "anyone can do it." Not anyone can be Jackie Chan. But anybody can use the same inner tools that Chan did that got him famous, and chart the course of their own life. That's what's inspirational.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#88

Post by j-c-hewitt »

maldusiecle wrote: post #18
vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

Man, believe whatever you like, but it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of people who were in Chan's miserable situation--indentured servitude, endless hours, extreme poverty--and worked hard and weren't able to become, you know, Jackie Chan. It sort of stands to reason that it has to be that way, too, for the whole system to work. Chan is able to be the celebrity that he is, specifically because there's only on…

This is absurd to say. China is the biggest Horatio Alger story of the 20th century. During my parents' lifespan alone, millions of people in China died of starvation and it is now one of the world's leading industrial powers.

China was extremely poor and now it is extremely rich as a mass phenomenon. It is not like a Gulf power in which a tiny elite of owners presiding over an army of imported indentures. Like any society in history there is inequality, but you have to be an insane ideologue to deny the reality of mass advancement in standard of living in China during the 20th and 21st century so far.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#89

Post by diob »

vertline3 wrote: post #56

We have this tendency to look at successful people and think we can imitate them and have their success. I see Bill Gates is always giving a list of his favorite books of the year. Sorry Bill, if I read your books, I won't be a billionaire. Well Jackie Chan as great, talented, funny as he is. No matter what, I will never be him. Survivor bias and luck play a large role beyond what hard work and pain alone do.

Right. A large part of success is definitely luck and random opportunity, but I will say that you still have to be prepared for those instances to take advantage of them(unless you have nepotism on your side, then you can coast to your heart's content).

For us in the the lower / middle class, the best we can do is prepare as much as we can for the day we encounter luck or opportunity. No amount of preparation / commitment / training guarantees success, but we can't afford to be fatalistic about it.

I do agree that we need to be more empathetic with those who haven't succeeded though. People tend to assume it's due to some personal fault rather than accounting for the luck / opportunity aspect. Humans tend to think that when they themselves fail it's because of outside forces they couldn't control, but when others fail it's because of internal forces they could have controlled.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#90

Post by the_af »

chaostheory wrote: post #77
the_af wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does your comment not reiterate the article's core ideas in a nice little package? No? > Maybe I am arguing with you because I can't do the same with the author. Indeed. Because my post was very short, let me quote it here in its entirety, and please tell me how it "resonates" with the article and what point you think I -- along with the author, apparently -- am making, or should be making: > "Interesting how diffi…

Let me dissect it. > Interesting how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was. He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? You echo the article's conclusion. You agree with its main idea. > This article reviews how Chan downplays the hardships he was forced to endure (e.g. being essentially sold by his parents as an indentured servant when he was seven years old, complete with beatings and dismal living conditio…

> You echo the article's conclusion. You agree with its main idea.

No. The article is very long, draws many conclusions and ponders many aspects of Jackie's life and autobiography, and I only mentioned one aspect (a question, not a conclusion by the way). I'm completely silent on other issues raised by the article, such as Jackie Chan's opinions of freedom, his injuries, his relationship with mainland China, etc.

So no, I wouldn't say I "agree with its main idea". I do find the article interesting, which is what I said: no more, no less.

> You now summarize the article.

Yes.

> Can you not see how someone would feel that you agreed with the author?

No.

> The author makes it very clear how he feels.

Then why do you ask me?

> Do you disagree with the article?

I find parts of it I agree with, others uninteresting, others I disagree with. I already explained what I find interesting in my initial post ("how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was") and in my previous post I mentioned I wouldn't wish such a childhood on any kid.

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