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Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

bbc.co.uk

81–90 of 247 posts

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#81
post #18

Can we please have a global moratorium on all fishing for a few years? We are fishing the seas empty. I'm more than happy to pay for my share of the unsold/uncaught fish. This is such a disheartening example of the tragedy of the commons.

No, that would be an over reaction that will harm more than it helps. Controls are important but stop all legal fishing is not the answer.

I completely disagree. We are reaching a point where it would be incredibly difficult to do more harm than inaction. If we continue the way we're going now, there is going to be a moment in the future where a thermonuclear war would have been less harmful in the long run because it would have put a damper on our industry. It'll eventually get that bad, as horrible and unthinkable as that is. Wouldn't that just be unbearably ironic? If we end up regretting that the cold war never went hot because our daily habits are even worse on a long timeline?

We've already done damage that's difficult to even comprehend. There's dead zones all over the map, where there's nothing but a bunch of algae and isopods crawling around in the mud and bones on the sea floor. These are enormous amounts of surface area, but they also represent a huge depth, so it's actually a volume of completely ruined wilderness. It's many, many times worse than an equivalent amount of acreage on land turned barren. We don't really have the daily context to understand what a loss that is. If we cause a collapse of the ocean ecosystems, we are truly and fully ruined.

People like to think that rational responses to situations are always moderate and level-headed, but that depends on context. The rational response to what's happening in this context is to freak the fuck out. Literally any sacrifice is going to be worth averting this kind of catastrophe. We are quite literally like the frog which is slowly boiling in the pot; we are slowly boiling ourselves, but it's a generational process so nobody ever thinks it's time for drastic measures. We're not looking at a choice between winning or losing; we're looking at the difference between extinction and cataclysm. The choice between a death toll of merely hundreds of millions vs. billions. It's extremely likely that this situation is going to end both of our family lines at some point in the next several generations. It's awful, but unless we figure out time travel these are the choices we have.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been thinking about the issue of "saving the planet", which is similar to "saving the endangered spices from extinctions". Ultimately I think humans are just selfish by nature and they only do things to ensure the continuation of humans as a spices. Everything else is sugar-coating it. So really, there is no morality to be discussed, it is just natural instinct. My unpopular thoughts on global warming: https:/…

Humans are much more selfish than that. Almost nobody cares about the species. They care about themselves, their family, maybe their neighborhood, and if you’re really lucky they might care about their country.

That's actually quite true, come to think of it. Maybe I was actually giving too much credit.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#83

People often defend these kind of acts with the rationale that it is a culture heritage. If so, shouldn't they be sailing the ocean with traditional wooden sailboats and relying only on wind and currents to take them where they should go?

And my culture has a history of bear baiting and torturing scotsmen. We also made a great game of burning various people who disagreeded with our religion. Cultures have to grow up and recognize a greater good.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#84
post #64

People often defend these kind of acts with the rationale that it is a culture heritage. If so, shouldn't they be sailing the ocean with traditional wooden sailboats and relying only on wind and currents to take them where they should go?

No, because they are free to mix and match from their cultural heritage, and keep some parts while developing others (and adding new stuff to it). When we're talking about "cultural heritage", we mean respecting their choices regarding their cultural heritage (including abandoning parts of it). Not that they should absolutely stick to older practices on every aspect of life.

Yeah I don't agree even a little bit with Japanese whaling policy but I don't think it's fair to dismiss any argument involving the preservation of culture with "well, why don't you live like your ancestors from 1000 years ago?"

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#85
post #18

Can we please have a global moratorium on all fishing for a few years? We are fishing the seas empty. I'm more than happy to pay for my share of the unsold/uncaught fish. This is such a disheartening example of the tragedy of the commons.

No, that would be an over reaction that will harm more than it helps. Controls are important but stop all legal fishing is not the answer.

>that would be an over reaction that will harm more than it helps.

Explain.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#86
The article really doesn't do a good job of explaining what's going on, in particular:

> It means Japan will be able to freely hunt species currently protected by the IWC, like minke whales.

Japan has already been hunting Minke whale, in 2016 they killed more than 300[1].

What's changing here is not the facts on the ground, but a maneuver in international diplomacy. Japan, Iceland and Norway have opposed the IWC's total ban on whaling. Japan has, until now, decided to work around this by claiming the whaling is "scientific", an obvious farce. It's been commercial whaling in all but name. Iceland and Norway have made no such claim, but issued commercial quotas in defiance of the moratorium.

Now Japan is going to withdraw from the IWC entirely, which e.g. Canada did a long time ago[2] citing similar arguments.

They're also going to restrict their whaling to their "territorial waters and economic zones", i.e. stop hunting in the Arctic. This was arguably the most controversial part of what they were doing before, e.g. Iceland and Norway don't hunt whales outside of their EEC.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_Japan#Antarctica

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commissi...

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#87
post #68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. That cliché argument is used not only by the Japanese to defend whale hunting but to any kind of violence towards all non-human animals. Things change. Things need to change.

> The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. No, it's more like: "We do this for a long time, and we consider this part of who we are, and we like it, and want to keep doing it. We're not idiots to just do it because we did it in the past, and in fact, we have opted to drop tons of things that we did in th…

So why even argue that? Why not just say "I like whale meat"? I hate this "it's a tradition" bullshit. Just say it, stop hiding behind traditions.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#88
post #8

According to the article “ Pro-whaling nations expected the moratorium to be temporary, until consensus could be reached on sustainable catch quotas.” If this fishing is truly sustainable and doesn’t threaten the whales with extinction there shouldn’t be a problem. Why should whales get protection that pigs, cows, and other animals don’t?

For the same reasons that mountain gorillas do?

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#89
post #24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to? Aren't pigs or cattle sentient?

No, pigs and cattle are not sentient. Sentience is a complex question, but it mostly revolves around language and symbol-making/recognition. There's substantial evidence that whales actually have language. Pigs and cattle do not. (edit: I'm misusing the word "sentience" here. The problem is that it's not the right distinction. Cows/pigs are sentient , in that they can feel emotions. But they cannot reason . So it's n…

I am pretty sure we do not want to go down the 'cannot reason so can be eaten' path.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#90
post #68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. That cliché argument is used not only by the Japanese to defend whale hunting but to any kind of violence towards all non-human animals. Things change. Things need to change.

> The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. No, it's more like: "We do this for a long time, and we consider this part of who we are, and we like it, and want to keep doing it. We're not idiots to just do it because we did it in the past, and in fact, we have opted to drop tons of things that we did in th…

Hm but it depends whether there is a victim involved or not IMHO
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