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Why American cities are weirdly shaped

economist.com

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Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#81

Post by anothergoogler »

robertAngst wrote: post #34
mc32 wrote: post #9

The article implies that if cities could unilaterally annex twrritory they would and that presumanly would result in nicer city shapes (boundaries) as well as more importantly better and cheaper services due to elimination of redundancies. Interestingly the article claims both rich and poor people are reluctant to give up their enclaves/ independence due to power, momey, and other aspects such as education.

My city is one of the best in our area. Best schools, safe, and has a high property tax. 10 miles south of us is Detroit. Where the Detroit voters re-elected Kawammi kilpatrick despite having constant public corruption. Do I want those voters to impact my schools? Do those voters want to spend 9,000$/yr on property taxes? Its far too simplistic to think that there is only redundancies at play.

Your kids might learn to spell an un-American name like Kwame if you raised them around those scary poor people.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#82

Post by monocasa »

ghaff wrote: post #52
dayofthedaleks wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad that the Voice of White Flight Suburbs could chime in. Edit: Also, it looks like Kwame Kilpatrick hasn't stood for office in more than a decade. Exactly what axe are you grinding, here?

Detroit has some of the highest public school spending per student in the country with some of the worst outcomes even for an urban area. It's a pretty common pattern that cities spend more per student than suburbs and the schools are "worse" (by just about any quantitative metric). And, yes, it's historically been a big reason for families who could afford to do so to leave cities; the alternative in their minds was…

So I have several family members who work in under privileged schools, and what they pretty unequivocally say to this argument is that it's one of those "it's expensive to be poor" kind of things.

These kid's parents work two or three jobs, so we give them subsidized after school programs. Their housholds are food insecure, so we give them breakfast and lunch so they can focus on schooling and not their empty stomachs.

So much of this spending is just to try and bring these students closer to parity in the moment, but despite all of that, they don't get any that before they enter school in kindergarten, so they're sort of perpetually behind. It has next to nothing to do with government waste, or throwing good money after bad despite what that terrible "Waiting for Superman" movie told all the white flight parents looking for validation.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#83

Post by NeedMoreTea »

pjc50 wrote: post #31
chrisseaton wrote: post #2

My understanding is that a city boundary in the US is a big deal. The police force on either side can be completely different, things that can get you in a lot of trouble like gun laws can be different on either side, prices and taxes can be very different. In the UK a city boundary doesn't really mean anything. There might be a nice 'Welcome to X' sign but nothing really changes as it would in the US. I'm not even s…

The UK is an extremely centralised state by comparison with the US or even most European countries - almost all decisions are made at Westminster, and the central government can override the devolved assemblies if it really wants to. The taxations powers devolved to councils are fairly minimal and also overridden by central government at whim. And there's no history of segregation.

True sadly, 1974 local government reorganisation set us on the route to ever more centralisation. That seems to have continued under every government since.

Go back earlier and local government actually had ability to achieve things. Things that suited the locality.

Now everyone from county and town councils can vote against x (eg fracking) and Whitehall happily steamroller over it. The north shall have the ugly stuff, the south east the infrastructure and spending.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#84

Post by mikestew »

triviatise wrote: post #76
mikestew wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that a city boundary in the US is a big deal. I’d be hard-pressed to think of a time it made a lick of difference to me, having lived in the U. S. my entire life. “Don’t carry a handgun to Chicago”, okay, file that one away. “If you’re black”, and I’m not, “don’t stop for gas in Martinsville, IN”. Though that one might not still be true, I’d still stay away from Elwood, my Afro-American friend. Ot…

Of course none of these might apply to you, but they are a big deal for the people they impact. 1) marijuana enforcement can be a huge deal, getting let go vs going to prison 2) fireworks enforcement 3) zoning and permitting, is absolutely huge 4) taxes (sales, property, and even income) 5) "sanctuary cities" can have huge implications for illegal aliens 6) homeless policies etc etc

Well, if we’re going to dig that deep, then I argue that parent’s point is invalid merely on the basis of European cities that restrict driving in downtown cores. IOW, if the argument is that UK/European cities do not have laws that differ from one municipality to the next, well, that’s demonstrably not true.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#85

Post by vvanders »

mikestew wrote: post #60
chrisseaton wrote: post #2

My understanding is that a city boundary in the US is a big deal. The police force on either side can be completely different, things that can get you in a lot of trouble like gun laws can be different on either side, prices and taxes can be very different. In the UK a city boundary doesn't really mean anything. There might be a nice 'Welcome to X' sign but nothing really changes as it would in the US. I'm not even s…

My understanding is that a city boundary in the US is a big deal. I’d be hard-pressed to think of a time it made a lick of difference to me, having lived in the U. S. my entire life. “Don’t carry a handgun to Chicago”, okay, file that one away. “If you’re black”, and I’m not, “don’t stop for gas in Martinsville, IN”. Though that one might not still be true, I’d still stay away from Elwood, my Afro-American friend. Ot…

Pocket knife laws vary pretty widely city to city. Things like legal blade length can vary up to 2"(2-4"). Fixed blades can get you in some really deep trouble unless you're "using it as part of your proffession" or "participating in hunting/fishing activities". Tons of other obscure things that can be selectively enforced at a city level.

I tend to carry one becuase it's a useful tool to have but have to be careful which one I take with me when going on a trip outisde town.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#86

Post by chrisseaton »

mikestew wrote: post #66
chrisseaton wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good example is that the Las Vegas Strip is actually very carefully just outside Las Vegas, in order to avoid the control of the city. If you search you can easily find examples of people being arrested for doing something inside a city, which (presumably) have been legal if they'd done it just outside of the city. https://www.jcolaw.com/discharging-a-weapon-within-city-limi...

That’s my point: why do I care where the strip is legally located? Casinos have reason to care, I don’t. And if you’re discharging a firearm, yeah, you better make for damned sure you’re allowed (what was my one example that wasn’t related to race?). Your linked example calls out towns I’ve lived near (lived in Gastonia), and the reason there’s a need for such lawyers is due to morons that think ownership of a firear…

> it’s a safe bet that if you’re within city limits

That’s my point - you need to know where the city limits are. In the UK I have no idea where the city limits are, and I suspect there possibly may not be any formal city limits at all.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#87

Post by crooked-v »

xte wrote: post #80
lozenge wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's a nightmare to live in and spacing things out is the only way to plan for the future? Sounds like you are judging by your own very blinkered standards of what makes a city liveable.

Try to live, really, not for short touristic period, in Japan with their education, way of work and live. It's a developed country so you have all food you want, all services you want, but you also have a neurotic, stressogen, society in witch people live to work, not the contrary.

I don't understand how Japanese work culture is supposed to be a result of their city designs.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#88

Post by gumby »

Despite the LA example, California isn’t as extreme as portrayed. But it has interesting oddities.

For example, in Redwood City in Silicon Valley there is a small bubble of only a few streets that is not part of the city (or any city). However unlike most unincorporated areas, buildings there do get municipal water, police, and access to he schools. Why is this? Because that zone has an auto paint shop, and other businesses that would not be allowed under the city’s strict environmental and labor laws. But people still need a way to get those services.

But fundamentally, California is comprised of counties, not cities; “towns” are largely simply customary ways to refer to a place. Some counties have only unincorporated towns and a number of counties themselves have no charter but are rather just run by the default rules in the constitution.

High-density regions like LA county or Santa Clara county are more like the European model with county governments, incorporated cities, school, water, fire etc districts, but even they have many unincorporated areas...and why not?

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#89

Post by atom-morgan »

EGreg wrote: post #70

I want libertarians and anarchists to read this kind of stuff and start to consider that maybe cities are organizations that compete and cooperate, just like companies and unions. Disneyworld is a city owned by a corporation, next door is a democratically run city. The Disney corporation has a sort of democracy of sharholders too, which elects a board etc. Businesses renting space in DisneyWorld are not much differen…

Most libertarians and anarchists I've talked to do and have considered this.

Re: Why American cities are weirdly shaped

#90

Post by tboyd47 »

bane wrote: post #68
chrisseaton wrote: post #2

My understanding is that a city boundary in the US is a big deal. The police force on either side can be completely different, things that can get you in a lot of trouble like gun laws can be different on either side, prices and taxes can be very different. In the UK a city boundary doesn't really mean anything. There might be a nice 'Welcome to X' sign but nothing really changes as it would in the US. I'm not even s…

It can depend on the particular U.S. State. It's sometimes useful for non-Americans to think of the U.S. like a federation of weak semi-autonomous countries. Each state more or less runs their own affairs unless there's some federal interest in which case the national interest overrides the state one. What this means for this topic is that states organize their territories in sometimes different ways that can seem so…

> It's sometimes useful for non-Americans to think of the U.S. like a federation of weak semi-autonomous countries.

That may have been true in the 18th and 19th century, but since the early 1900s, I don't think it's accurate to say that anymore. Nearly every state power has been checked by the federal court system at some point during the 20th century [0].

I didn't know about the Police-Jury system, but it's surely the exception. Wouldn't you agree that state and local governments mostly act within the bounds defined by the federal government?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_R...

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