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There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

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Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#81
post #59

This companies are no different than any other company in the history of business. The only thing I can think of is the fact that in this case you can easily track the supplier and find out the "original price" of the item in a way that is very hard to do for let's say a pair of Nike shoes, but that's about it. Walmart is also full of these watches and you can believe they don't sell them for $5. Or do you really thi…

I would contend that there is a difference. They are advertising a watch. But what most people are receiving is a piece of trash.

If a local taco joint advertises 5 cent tacos for a promotion and they give you a moldy peanut butter sandwich, you would probably be really annoyed.

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#82

See also this spoof guide from the "watches" subreddit, "How to create a unique/successful minimalist watchbrand": https://imgur.com/a/6CNO8

If you weren't getting a "They Live" vibe from this whole thing, then, whew those interstitials will definitely do the trick

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#83
post #76
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a difference between a company selling their goods at a profit and this not-quite-scam where a popup company not-quite-lies to their customers and dropships cheap products from somewhere else.

What do you think Apple does every time someone buys from their online store? They even give you a tracking number where you can follow the item in real time all the way from the FoxConn factory in CHINA directly to your door. It never even flys over Cupertino. I think you are gonna be very surprised when you find out how the commodities trade actually work. Walmart sells the exact same watches. So does Amazon. Do yo…

You seem to have severely missed the point. Everbody knows that Apple manufactures their products in China. Everybody knows their supply chain ships them from warehouses around the world without ever visiting the US. That is nothing to do with any of this!

What the article is describing is as if Apple didn't design their own products, but instead shipped a barely working unbranded $16 android phone straight from an Alibaba seller when you tried to order an iPhone.

It's true that Amazon and Wallmart etc. have done sort-of this kind of thing for a long time (but slightly higher quality goods), but there's a huge difference between this and actual genuine proprietary goods. And even with Wallmart and Amazon, they don't usually make up a brand story to try and make buyers thinking they're getting a unique product from a high quality boutique designer and then selling them broken mass-produced trash.

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#84
post #59

This companies are no different than any other company in the history of business. The only thing I can think of is the fact that in this case you can easily track the supplier and find out the "original price" of the item in a way that is very hard to do for let's say a pair of Nike shoes, but that's about it. Walmart is also full of these watches and you can believe they don't sell them for $5. Or do you really thi…

I would contend that there is a difference. They are advertising a watch . But what most people are receiving is a piece of trash. If a local taco joint advertises 5 cent tacos for a promotion and they give you a moldy peanut butter sandwich, you would probably be really annoyed.

[deleted]

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#85
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think Apple does every time someone buys from their online store? They even give you a tracking number where you can follow the item in real time all the way from the FoxConn factory in CHINA directly to your door. It never even flys over Cupertino. I think you are gonna be very surprised when you find out how the commodities trade actually work. Walmart sells the exact same watches. So does Amazon. Do yo…

You seem to have severely missed the point. Everbody knows that Apple manufactures their products in China. Everybody knows their supply chain ships them from warehouses around the world without ever visiting the US. That is nothing to do with any of this! What the article is describing is as if Apple didn't design their own products, but instead shipped a barely working unbranded $16 android phone straight from an A…

You are missing my point.

Every company does this, even Apple. Every company outsources designs to third parties or buys the rights to an already made product to sell as their own. Apple does it with cables and maybe most famously the Apple branded iMac vesa mount. I'm sure they do it with other non core stuff too.

Entire car companies are nothing but rebadged models from another sister/partner brand. And oh boy you should read the heritage stories of those ghost brands. Audi takes a Porsche SUV, makes a few tweaks and boom, new Q7. Do they say that on their marketing or do they talk about how they spent years studying the needs of a family to be able to balance it with the desire for power and performance? Or how they finally achieved the perfect balance of sportiness and practicality?

Hasselblad and Leica, renowned for their photographic history and iconic designs sell nothing but rebadged cameras at the low end, at double the price of their counterparts of course. Do they redirect to Sony or Panasonic on their marketing pages?

Almost the entire fashion and makeup industries are like this.

These guys have bad quality control, ok, I'll give you that, but that just means they are bad at business. And It is not like their watches were such a fire hazard that all had to be banned from even entering an airplane.

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#86
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people start arguing generically about capitalism, socialism, communism, etc., that's the kind of tangent I'm talking about. Such internet forum discussions are extremely repetitive, which makes them off topic here. Plus they're flammable, plus they get dumber the longer they go on.

But the article itself is a critique of modern capitalism in general. Yes it was using watches to make the point, but it wasn't about watches. Right from the outset this is made clear. The watch being talked about hasn't been donated to a museum of watches, it has been donated to a museum of capitalism. Even the title was chosen to make it entirely explicit where they were going with the article. To then say that peo…

That's all fine but a comment that "capitalism [is] buying shit and lying about it to sell it for higher" is obviously unsubstantive. Unsubstantive plus generic is a bad combination for thoughtful discussion.

I don't think it's hard to see what we're trying to avoid here.

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A new set because history has developed in such a way to generate new contradictions - but yes, the new class structure is at least partially a result of changes in technology (though some Marxists disagree with me on this). Contradictions doesn't mean internally inconsistent in dialectical sense; Marxism is famous for its application of dialectical logic, in which opposites oppose each other while maintaining unity…

Why is there a contradiction between use-value and exchange-value? Exchange-value is just other peoples' use-value (with some exceptions like money itself). > ... I can say that the dialectical mode of presentation was admitted by Engels to have been rather outmoded even by the time Capital I was published. Is there a Marxism that doesn't depend on the dialectic? Or just on the dialectical mode of presentation? It ha…

That's precisely the contradiction. For instance, a house satisfied a social need or want (to keep someone protected from the elements), which is what gives it value to begin with, after all, nothing can have value without first being an object of demand. But strangely, people buy houses to "use" their exchange value, i.e as an asset. Most houses were never designed to be imbued with the sort of labour which makes them valuable as assets, but rather the sort of labour which makes them useful as actual usable homes. In fact, the focus on exchange value means that houses will deteriorate while people collect rent.

Exchange value appears as use-value, but that doesn't make it essentially use-value; while marginalism would say that I sell a product because I "value" (verb) the money more than the product, Marx says that when an object is to be exchanged, I see no use-value in it at all. But of course it has social use-value, because it can fulfill wants and needs.

"The form of use-value is the form of the commodity’s body itself, iron, linen, etc., its tangible, sensible form of existence. This is the natural form (Naturalform) of the commodity. As opposed to this the value-form (Wertform) of the commodity is its social form."

The question Marx wanted to answer was why the actual concrete form of the product appears in the relation to others (for instance, you can't say "20 yards of linen are worth 20 yards of linen", you must say they it is worth "1 coat" or "20 cwt. iron" etc.). The contradiction is that qualitatively different things can be quantitatively the same in value, but this quantitative measurement necessitates a differentiation in quality.

>Thus through the relative value-expression the value of the commodity acquires, first, a form different from its own use-value. The use-form of this commodity is, e.g. linen. But it possesses its value-form in its relation of equality with the coat. Through this relation of equality the body of another commodity, sensibly different from it, becomes the mirror of its own existence as value (Wertsein), of its own character as value (Wertgestalt). In this way it gains an independent and separate value-form, different from its natural form. But second, as a value of definite magnitude, it is quantitatively measured by the quantitatively definite relation or the proportion in which it is equated to the body of the other commodity.

>Is there a Marxism that doesn't depend on the dialectic? Or just on the dialectical mode of presentation?

Yes, John Elster, G.A. Cohen, Roberto Veneziani, Andrew Kliman, Anwar Shaikh, Nobuo Okishio, David Laibman, Naoki Yoshihara and other "analytical Marxists" have at least attempted to either explain Marx and capitalism without such dialectical concepts as value, for instance the theory of hitsorical materialism, or they have attempted to concentrate on the purely quantitative theory of value which can be neatly expressed in neoclassical economic terms (game theory and matrix algebra) to the end of various competing theories which are readable to economists rather than philosophers. The success to which they excise the "mysterious" parts of Marx is up for debate, and I think that a lot is lost in analytical formulations thus far - but the attempts are admirable and perhaps fertile for further research.

I agree with what you're saying on simplicity, but Marx's writings are deep and many-layered and open to several interpretations and re-formulations, to the point where it's hard to speak of him without advancing your favourite interpretation.

Re: There's no such thing as a free watch (2017)

#90
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the article itself is a critique of modern capitalism in general. Yes it was using watches to make the point, but it wasn't about watches. Right from the outset this is made clear. The watch being talked about hasn't been donated to a museum of watches, it has been donated to a museum of capitalism. Even the title was chosen to make it entirely explicit where they were going with the article. To then say that peo…

That's all fine but a comment that "capitalism [is] buying shit and lying about it to sell it for higher" is obviously unsubstantive. Unsubstantive plus generic is a bad combination for thoughtful discussion. I don't think it's hard to see what we're trying to avoid here.

I agree that you have more of a point in saying that it could have had more substance to it, than in claiming that it is somehow a tangent from the article.
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