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Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

bloomberg.com

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Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#81

Similar to how the US bailed out the banks. How about the citizens are bailed out. It would boost the economy. Restore faith in the system!

That might be nice, but... how, exactly? By writing off the debts? That's not so nice for those who are owed. A bunch of those are pension funds, for example. If peoples' pensions get wiped out by by all debts being forgiven, they won't be so happy. By the government giving money to people? But where does the government get the money? By taking on debt? Then the government's even more deeply in debt, which means that…

> By the government giving money to people? But where does the government get the money? By taking on debt? Then the government's even more deeply in debt, which means that we the people still are in debt, too.

But it's a lot easier to pay off, especially if you prioritize high risk debt to nationalize, so the government has a lower cost of borrowing (especially if the government, instead of paying off distressed debt, instead purchases it at current fair market value, since then the cost will be below the face value; “healthy” debts don't need a correction.)

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#82
post #66

Doesn't debt have to sum to zero globally? A debt held by one person is an equal asset owed another. Or perhaps this is a measure of the number of debts outstanding, divided per person, but not accounting for assets.

Bingo. It's meaningless to talk about debt without mentioning assets.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#83
post #66

Doesn't debt have to sum to zero globally? A debt held by one person is an equal asset owed another. Or perhaps this is a measure of the number of debts outstanding, divided per person, but not accounting for assets.

I believe the statistic referenced in this headline is roughly total sum of debt in the world (184 trillion) / earth population (7.6 billion) is the total number of debt per person. I think what you are driving at is exactly why this article is misleading.

edit: I don't think debt is exactly zero sum. When a loan is made, the person who took the load has a debt of the present value of future loan payments(ie with interest accrued and adjusted for inflation). The lender has an asset that is the present value of the loan payments times the probability the loan will be payed off. I might be missing something here though.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#84
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level its obvious that some debts won't be. It happens all the time for a lot of reasons. So I assume you aren't talking about the individual level. But on the macro level zero debt is a very bad idea and unless civilization collapses there will always be debt. Debt…

> Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future. How about having homes and cars and education without debt? It's not like you need to be in debt to another and to steal from your feature to have nice things...

You are basically arguing that most people should never be able to own real estate, doomed to live as perpetual tenants. Over the course of a lifetime, that is actually more expensive than a 30 year mortgage.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#85
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the Federal Reserve system. Money/currency does not have to be debt based. For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based.

People downvoting this comment: please provide reasons for disagreeing. You are not adding to the discussion by silently downvoting.

I started a reply, but honestly, I just don't feel like it's worth the energy to follow up with the replies I'd get. Probably because of the tone of the response.

I don't see debt as all that much different than insurance. Sure, society can get by without it, and you may never need it, but society in general benefits. If I run a business any large expenses would be amortized over the lifetime of that thing. I could pay for it upfront, but that might never happen and if I could it wouldn't be the best use of my resources. Ideally, I'd "pay rent" in order to borrow money upfront, now that I have that machine it's easier to pay back since that fixed cost will benefit me for the next 20 years. That's the scenario where all debt is never paid back.

Financial tools, like anything else can be good or bad depending on the circumstances and motivations at play. Payday loans (generally seen as bad) aren't all that different from micro-loans lauded in third-world countries. Let's say there's an older woman who walks out of town to buy goods and carries them back to town every day to sell (arbitrage). If she gets a small loan to buy more goods up front, invest in a wheelbarrow, or a booth at the market she can do more business and more easily pay off that loan benefiting; her, the person offering the loan, the sellers and the buyers--society in general. If she cannot pay back the loan she can get into a debit spiral. There are situations where that is beneficial to the person giving her the loan at the expense of her and the rest of society.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#86
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all debt was forgiven every 50 years, why would any lender lend money with a term going past the year before the jubilee?

They wouldn't and maybe it's a bad idea to enter debt that last more than 50 years. It pretty much means to borrow money that the next generation has to pay off.

I understood the original comment to mean everyone’s debt is zeroed at 50 year intervals, e.g. 1900, 1950, 2000, etc. regardless of when it started.

What you are suggesting is all debt is zeroed out 50 years after it’s issued? Then why would any borrower pay off any principle at all?

This whole jubilee thing makes no sense, may be a little bit if the jubilee happens unexpectedly so that people can’t just plan around it. But that kind of sort of happens after a war.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#87
post #66

Doesn't debt have to sum to zero globally? A debt held by one person is an equal asset owed another. Or perhaps this is a measure of the number of debts outstanding, divided per person, but not accounting for assets.

I'm guessing it's the latter. I owe hundreds of thousands on my house, but my house is worth significantly more than my debt, so my net debt is zero.

I'm guessing this is just all debts added together, and then divided by the number of people. And it's probably including national debt, which is ~$58k/person in the US (which is surprisingly slightly below average for countries with debt).

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#88
post #70

In unrelated news: average mortgage worldwide close to $86k per Person. How much of the Worldwide debt is secured by collateral?

If you count national debt, you get ~$60k/person from that, so the average mortgage would be closer to $20k/person.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, speaking in terms of net value, you don’t have debt.

Assets = Liabilities + Equity. In other words, $350k home = $300k mortgage + $50k in equity. You still have debt. Its just that the debt was exchanged for something. Its the same equation for credit card debt. No one takes on debt without receiving something in return.

Well people do take on debt for things that are quickly worth nothing. For example, you buy groceries with a credit card. You eat them; they are gone. But you still have the debt.

Or you buy a car. It quickly loses value, but you still have the debt based on the original purchase.

The formula still holds, but the "equity" part is negative, which leads many people to conclude that bankruptcy is a better option than paying for something they no longer have or is no longer worth what they owe.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#90
post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

What matters more than nominal amount of debt is the debt-to-income ratio. If people have income (or liquid assets) to cover their debt payments, things are fine. It's generally when that ratio gets large that problems arise.

Also, debt is money. When you give me something of value, and I say I will pay you later for it, we have created money. A big part of the problem in down cycles is that lending drastically decreases, and there is therefore less money (broadly defined) in the system.

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