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Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

theguardian.com

81–90 of 101 posts

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#81
post #61
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you conflating RoundUp (NOT even a pesticide) with all GMOs? Attacking GMO technology because of one company's misuse is like attacking electricity because of the electric chair. We're talking about replacing pesticides. Monsanto is in the business of selling herbicides and pesticides, so of course they're not going to use the tech to neuter their profits. If anything they are benefiting from the negative pre…

I'm not conflating. I'm providing an example of a GMO that's still requires a pesticide. I'd like a counterexample of a GMO that actually REDUCES/ELIMINATES pesticide usage, as the parent claimed that GMOs do. In theory, GMOs don't need pesticides. I'm asking about practice. Most other comments support my skepticism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_maize

> Bt corn is a variant of maize that has been genetically altered to express one or more proteins from the bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis[8] including Delta endotoxins. The protein is poisonous to certain insect pests. Spores of the bacillus are widely used in organic gardening[9], although GM corn is not considered organic. The European corn borer causes about a billion dollars in damage to corn crops each year.[10]

> In 2018 a study found that Bt-corn protected nearby fields of non-Bt corn and nearby vegetable crops, reducing the use of pesticides on those crops. Data from 1976-1996 (before Bt corn was widespread) was compared to data after it was adopted (1996-2016). They examined levels of the European corn borer and corn earworm. Their larvae eat a variety of crops, including peppers and green beans. Between 1992 and 2016, the amount of insecticide applied to New Jersey pepper fields decreased by 85 percent. Another factor was the introduction of more effective pesticides that were applied less often.[18]

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#82
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people appear to be down-voting you, so I'll comment instead: The standard defense is that the mercury is locked in place inside the amalgam, and does not migrate. I've never looked at the evidence either way.

I remember in Germany there were lots of studies that showed mercury leaking out. Dentists fought for quite a while but I don't think they are in use anymore. I got my amalgam fillings taken out in the 90s and replaced with plastic and ceramic.

> Dentists fought for quite a while but I don't think they are in use anymore.

The anti-dentites won.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#83
post #78

Anyone know of a QUALY-based analysis of the costs and benefits of using these fertilizers? The headline is quite hard to argue with ("think of the children!") but it would be interesting to know how much it would cost to use alternatives, and how much harm is being done by the current level of use.

You reference the logical fallacy of "think of the children", but in this case it doesn't really seem like a logical fallacy, if we are literally poisoning the children.

For comparative example, lead abatement is not a fallacious "think of the children" argument- actual children are routinely poisoned by lead.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#84
post #26
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there will be a time in the future when we'll look back and think how crazy people were in 2018 pumping all kinds of known toxins into the environment. It will probably be the same incredulity we have when we look at people using radium toothpaste in 1920 or the mad hatters working with mercury the whole day and going crazy.

Or in 2050, wondering why in 2018, mercury amalgam (Hg is an established neurotoxin) was still in significant use (except in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) as a dental filler.

Sorry for the downvotes. I received chelation therapy after years and years of very strange accumulating issues that some day crossed a threshold where they could no longer be ignored. I had actually not seen that coming and called myself healthy, the human brain is extraordinarily capable of ignoring obvious problems. When I was forced to acknowledge that not all was well my world fell apart. Long story short, I found the problem after some searching. Mercury was high both in hair and in urine - I was lucky. Normally chronic exposure is next to impossible to show via such tests. After chelation mostly with DMPS, later also lots of DMSA I achieved miracles. For exanple, a double-sized right thyroid with a nodule became normal and the nodule disappeared. That condition had been there for at least 25 years (first diagnosis). It disappeared within a few weeks, after the 4th or 5th DMPS treatment the tissues surrounding that area were very active, I knew there was something going on. So I went to the endocrinologist again who did the ultra-sound twice because he did not believe it. That is just a single example of many, from psoriasis (gone) to warts on the feet (gone), eye problems (gone), never-ending colds (for months!) that had gotten worse and worse over time, and a long list of other problems.

How do I know it was the amalgam fillings? Because that was my only exposure, and because it turned out my jaw bones were very damaged - exactly were there had been amalgam fillings. It was discovered not by x-ray, several OPGs never showed anything. But when I was to get an injection into the buccal mucosa the needle went right into the bone (that's really not supposed to happen, you can't penetrate bone with a small needle used for a mucosa injection). The doctor checked and this happened in all the places where I had had amalgam fillings. He then injected DMPS in those places. A year later, and after the jaw bones had been very active (but in a positive way) the needle didn't go in anywhere any more. To this day there is (decreasing) activity in my jaw bones, and I still take chelators that have an effect right there (jaw bone).

But please, go ahead and downvote anyone who says something about amalgam fillings. I actually have a background in medical topics, from anatomy, physiology to (of course) bio chemistry, and I read quite a few studies. The lead situation was so bad that politicians actually went to action to do something about it, worldwide. Mercury is far more toxic than lead (and, according to some LD study I once found on PubMed, together about a thousand times more toxic than either lead or mercury alone). Yes, pieces of amalgam are not the problem, they go right through. And as others have said, insertion and even more so removal - with a drill creating heat which creates vapor (no matter how much you cool with water, by then the vapor already exists) - are the worst parts. I had had a few fillings removed while I was a student. Only recently, two decades later, did I connect the dots, why back then I had a huge "almost asthma" allergy almost overnight, as well as huge problems finding sleep, strange thoughts, and big problems with some joints that didn't seem to have any observable reason. The removal was without protection, the removal of the last fillings a few years ago, when I hoped I had found the problem (I did not know, amalgam removal and chelation was an experiment because I could not find anything else, and boy was I proven correct), was with good protective measures that I think worked (I didn't get worse then I already was at the time).

Here is something to consider: What happened when I started DMPS chelation was something that according to doctors doing that kind of treatment is not uncommon, so much so that I was told that might happen before it happened. The initial values went down quickly and linearly - but after a few DMPS treatments my symptoms suddenly jumped. Turned out that the amount of excreted mercury had also jumped (tripled). From then on my body became "active". All kinds of crazy stuff happened, for a long time (it's still not quite over in the jaw area). It seems that the body is overwhelmed at some point and is no longer able to excrete everything. Maybe the spikes of insertion and/or removal of amalgam fillings contribute, too much at once. After the first year I took chelators because it still helped, but it was no longer necessary for excretion, my body had become pretty active. Maybe somebody whose body can deal with the spikes, or who never experiences them, has less trouble continuously getting rid of the mercury that is released from the fillings.

Sooo many questions, and I made soooo many interesting observations. Too bad it's impossible to talk about it, even anonymously on the Internet, because for some reason this topic raises the emotions of sooo many people. That the subject is present on so many websites of the esoteric kind is because it's next to impossible to talk about it in normal circles. My insurance always paid every little thing, even the most stupid and ridiculous and useless stuff - but when I finally send them a bill that mentioned "mercury" and "DMPS" (chelator) they suddenly refused. IT was a trigger word. They had paid for dozens of doctors (that one year when everything escalated, I went to many doctors with the many issues I had, from gastroenterologist to psychologist), now, the one thing that actually worked, and which was very cheap(!), they refused. It's insane. Same here - somebody mentions the trigger words (mercury, amalgam), the comment is voted down immediately. By whom actually? Are there so many prominent toxicologists reading this?

I don't think so. Even a normal MD would not know much about it. I've actually seen this: When I go to a talk from a doctor specialized in lung disease and someone in the audience asks about something not the lung the doctor is very careful not to say anything, because it's not their specialty. Strange, everybody (including non-doctors) has a strong opinion when it comes to the subject of chronic mercury poisoning through amalgam fillings.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#85
post #47
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there will be a time in the future when we'll look back and think how crazy people were in 2018 pumping all kinds of known toxins into the environment. It will probably be the same incredulity we have when we look at people using radium toothpaste in 1920 or the mad hatters working with mercury the whole day and going crazy.

I always wonder if there's a mindset of, "use it as long as we can get away with it." We will need to significantly change our laws to fix this.

It's more like "use it until there's another product that we can sell at equal or higher profit. Then get those old organophosphates (now cheap) banned by backing critical research that was previously blocked."

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#86
And what about safety to farmers?

I've used phosmet, an organophosphate insecticide, and I don't like to use it. You can know it's around in the warehouse, still in the original sealed packages, just by smelling it. A feeling of dry mouth and eyes usually follows.

And it's not because it's a dangerous substance - most pesticides with very few exceptions are dangerous - but because it is very hard to handle.

Phosmet is usually sold as a fine powder, and as it is the case of most soluble powders, it disperses in air easily. I always ask for liquid insecticides, but these are not always available.

Masks are not particularly useful: cotton masks are of little to no use, filters are compromised by facial hair[1] and air supply masks are crazy expensive.

If farmers respect the required safety intervals, harm to consumers is considerably minimized. The main hazard comes to people that come in contact with larger concentrations of pesticides: manufacturers, sellers and farmers.

Now I just open the package carefully underwater, if the sprayer is full enough and the package is to be completely emptied. This minimizes dispersion considerably.

[1] http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/463742O/facial-hair-and-r...

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#87
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember in Germany there were lots of studies that showed mercury leaking out. Dentists fought for quite a while but I don't think they are in use anymore. I got my amalgam fillings taken out in the 90s and replaced with plastic and ceramic.

> Dentists fought for quite a while but I don't think they are in use anymore. The anti-dentites won.

I think the dentists are still in use :-)

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#88
It would help if they could explain why there aren't more autism clusters[1] in California's central valley if they want to make a stronger case. In the central valley you have 10x the exposure to organophosphate pesticides given the agricultural activity. So an a per-capita basis I would expect that to show up in the clusters.

[1] https://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/newsroom/Maps/autism_cluster.h...

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#89

Would diatomaceous earth be a cost effective replacement?

There are different grades of quality in diatomaceous earth, some are safer, other not so. Is a "fosil stone", so is not unlimited. Diatom skeletons are tiny silica boxes, and breathing silica dust regularly leads to silicose. Would also change the soil structure and increase the damage in the machines needed for harvest.

In the other hand spiders and bats are the perfect insecticide without any bad side effect for plants. Its numbers would increase filling the gap, at least partially.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#90
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people appear to be down-voting you, so I'll comment instead: The standard defense is that the mercury is locked in place inside the amalgam, and does not migrate. I've never looked at the evidence either way.

That's the defense against removing amalgam that has already been introduced, it's safer locked away than trying to drill it out and risking high level exposure.

In my experience the mercury amalgam fillings tend to crumble and plop out in pieces after a few years. Maybe not the entire filling, but enough to where they'll have to declare a do-over, drill and augment/replace with more mercury amalgam.
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