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Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#81

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

> Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp French also uses “manquer”, and there are traces in spanish (such as a manco being a person that lacks an arm).

In Catalan too. Mancar. https://mdlc.iec.cat/results.asp?txtEntrada=mancar&operEntra...

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#82
post #28

This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…

I think you view is too simplistic. I've talked with Albanian friends about the persecutions/humiliations endured during the ottoman domination. They mentioned catholic people who had to live in the mountains, far from the rivers and in absolute poverty to keep their religion. Let's also not forget the genocidal behavior of the ottoman empire against the Lebanese Christians, the Serbs and the Greeks (mostly in the 19…

I think you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not claiming that empires (or the ottoman empire specifically) was good, or that persecutions didn't hapoen. All sorts of awful ethnic persecutions happened within empires. American slavery was initially a British imperial institution. The word pogrom comes from the Russian empire.

But, it is also true that empires tended to be pluralistic, in that different cultures lived within them for very long periods. Nation states value cultural cohesion and national homogeneity, and pluralism has, in many cases, ceased when nations succeeded empires politically.

Compare nearly any central or austrian european capital in 1900 or 2000. They became far more homogeneous. Take ottoman cities (Cairo, Istanbul, bagdad...), pluralism reversed. It some cases (eg Istanbul), it receded fast and hard. In others, it took longer.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#83

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad") used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?

> the etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery."

Maybe. But this is not generally agreed upon by Romance linguists. The more generally accepted etymology connects to the name of the Biblical Maccabees. The OED says:

"The Middle French word occurs first in Jean le Fèvre's Respit de la Mort (1376), where the author says ‘Je fis de Macabré la dance’: this is apparently a claim to have written a work called la danse Macabré. In form the word might be a popular alteration of Old French Macabé Maccabaeus (examples of Judas Macabré(s) occur at the end of the 12th cent.): see Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus for investigation of the range of forms and spellings attested in Middle French for both the present word and for words and expressions independently derived from the biblical proper name. As regards meaning, it may be connected with the late medieval liturgical dance or procession called chorea Machabaeorum in Latin (Besançon, 1453) and in Middle Dutch Makkabeusdans (15th cent.), which has been explained as arising from 2 Maccabees 7: Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch suggests also the association of the liturgical office of the dead with 2 Maccabees 12:43–6 in the Vulgate (verses 43–5 in the King James Bible) as a reason for a link between a cult of the Maccabees and the dance of the dead tradition in art and literature. In Middle French the metaphor aller a la dance De Macabré ‘to die’ is found in the 15th cent.

A less likely explanation is that Macabré was the name of the artist who painted the picture which suggested the first poem on the subject.

There is no evidence to support the theory that the word derives from Arabic maqābir, plural of maqbara cemetery (Moroccan colloquial Arabic məqāber, plural of məqebra tomb), or from Syriac meqabberēy gravediggers. For summaries of further explanations which have been advanced see Trésor de la langue française at macabre, Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus."

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#84
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well "manger" is "to eat" in French and "mangiare" in Italian which apparently both come from latin "manducare" so maybe the Romanian word comes from here? Meanwhile French "manquer" and Italian "mancare" seem to come "From Latin mancus, from Proto-Indo-European *man-ko- (“maimed in the hand”)." Actually we still have "manchot" in modern French to mean one-armed which I always assumed came from "manche" (sleeve) but…

The "man-ko-" term seems to confirm why, as I mentioned at the top, mancar in Portuguese came to mean to limp. To say someone is "manco" is effectively to say they're maimed in some way. "Sleeve" in Portuguese is "manga", which in turn is also the word for mango, the fruit. The Latin "manica" meant "sleeve", while the name of the fruit originally comes from an Indian language, into English, via the Portuguese. Etymol…

In Italian "monco" means missing an arm, which comes very close to it

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#85
> Moorish (Arab)

I thought the Moors were from Morocco / Mauritania (NW Africa), and Arabs are from Arabia (between NE Africa and Asia)?

I've played several games of CK2 starting in 1066 Spain, it's a real race to consolidate both the split northern Christian kingdoms and the smaller Muslim realms in the south. Marrakesh starts out small, but it's pretty good at consolidating too, and ends up being quite a problem to deal with...

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#86
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the orthographic X become [x] or is it [ʃ]? eg. How would they say Quixote, with a "sh" sound? Interesting, I once came across the original spelling of Mexico: Mejico. In Brazil today they call it "Meshy-ko." Similarly in English, many of features that the British like to look down their noses as "Americanisms" were invented in Britain.

Yeah, this is a puzzling thing to me. The Spaniards came in and they wrote down a bunch of native Mexican place names with X being a sh sound, as it is today in other Iberian languages like Portuguese. Then that sound morphed in Spain into the kh sound, like in loch. In IPA-speak that is /ʃ/ to /x/. But they brought that sound change to the Americas too. So, both sides of the ocean see that change... But not Ladino e…

> So, both sides of the ocean see that change... But not Ladino elsewhere in Europe, much closer to Spain as the crow flies.

Guessing it was one of constant contact, the Spanish were active sailing back and forth busy looting the Americas, while the Bosnians had lost contact. In the old days, sailing was probably much more efficient than horseback across a mountainous continent. Why didn't they sail over to Croatia? Not sure, perhaps Ladinos weren't active at the coast? Also, religion probably divided them from most Spanish.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#87
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you view is too simplistic. I've talked with Albanian friends about the persecutions/humiliations endured during the ottoman domination. They mentioned catholic people who had to live in the mountains, far from the rivers and in absolute poverty to keep their religion. Let's also not forget the genocidal behavior of the ottoman empire against the Lebanese Christians, the Serbs and the Greeks (mostly in the 19…

I think you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not claiming that empires (or the ottoman empire specifically) was good, or that persecutions didn't hapoen. All sorts of awful ethnic persecutions happened within empires. American slavery was initially a British imperial institution. The word pogrom comes from the Russian empire. But, it is also true that empires tended to be pluralistic, in that different cultures live…

Well my point was that some nations were victim of genocide and disappeared under the ottoman empire. So the culture of the minority was under constant assault there
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