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Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

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Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#81

Post by scarface74 »

badpun wrote: post #73
scarface74 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has allowed users to download the “last compatible version” since 2012. I reset my first generation iPad - last updated 2011 - last year and was able to load and run older versions of most of the apps for streaming services that were available back then - Netflix, Hulu, Crackle, Spotify, Plex, etc.

"Last compatible" means no more security updates, which basically means - we no longer care about the flaws we've made, go ahead and risk your privacy (including for example your life savings if you bank online). Also, my experience with the last compatible version (for iPhone 4 IIRC) was that IIRC neither Skype nor Hangouts worked anymore. Plus the whole device was incredibly slow.

What security flaws do you expect in older versions of apps that were able to escape the iOS sandbox that were later fixed by updating the applications?

What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS?

As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#82

Post by lawlessone »

sokoloff wrote: post #20
beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easies…

I can buy a phone for 10 euro in tesco, the back unclips in a and i can replace the battery as fast as i can pick it up.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#83

Post by badpun »

scarface74 wrote: post #81
badpun wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Last compatible" means no more security updates, which basically means - we no longer care about the flaws we've made, go ahead and risk your privacy (including for example your life savings if you bank online). Also, my experience with the last compatible version (for iPhone 4 IIRC) was that IIRC neither Skype nor Hangouts worked anymore. Plus the whole device was incredibly slow.

What security flaws do you expect in older versions of apps that were able to escape the iOS sandbox that were later fixed by updating the applications? What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS? As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....

I'm talking about security fixes to non-newest versions of iOS. Apple just does not do them.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#84

Post by prepend »

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

Repairabiliy is important. But I think durability is more important as it requires no action by the user. iPhones are pretty solid as far as lasting a long time. I’m using a 5S that is 3 years old and it’s my daily driver.

I passed on my old 4 that is still being used as a Netflix/ web browser.

This is contrary to competitor phones that have hardware issues as well as ability to keep getting software updates.

Nexus 5x released sep 2015 and selling used for $85 with original retail [0] compared to 6s released at the same dome that is now selling used for $165 despite an original price of $650 and worse specs [1].

Certainly some of this price difference is due to Apple as a luxury product. But it may also be due to new OS releases not being supported on the 5X, but are on the 6S.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp... [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp...

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#85

Post by jaxtellerSoA »

sokoloff wrote: post #20
beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easies…

>How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?

You comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between a task that genuinely requires labor (replacing brakes), and something that is artificially harder solely to discourage people from doing it, but could (and ought) to be a simple task that can be done 15 seconds.

Honda isn't intentionally making it more complex to get to your brake pads and rotors.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#86

Post by badpun »

grzm wrote: post #67
badpun wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling Unfortunately, without the newer versions of the iOS the phone loses functionalities pretty quickly (the apps will require newer versions of iOS), which, quite conveniently for Apple, will make you need to buy a new one. Aka planned obsolescence. But kudos for getting at least one version of iOS to perform better than the la…

iOS support has steadily increased over time. "[iOS 12] covers five previous generations of iPhones, stretching back to the iPhone 5S." https://www.fastcompany.com/90237242/take-apples-advice-dont... Yes, as hardware improves and the OS and applications take advantage of this hardware, newer applications may run slower on older hardware. I'm not aware of any phone manufacturer or OS for which this isn't true. AFAIK,…

It shows that sustainability is not even an afterthought. Everybody is ok with throwing away perfectly working devices (i.e. devices that were blazing fast just a couple years ago and now, with some crippling os updates, take 10 seconds to open a PDF) just because they're 3-5 years old. Let's see if Apple really does change their policy on this. For premium, very expensive phones, it would be reasonable for them to be fully functional (with no slowdowns) for at least 5 years.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#87

Post by ceejayoz »

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #85
sokoloff wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easies…

>How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)? You comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between a task that genuinely requires labor (replacing brakes), and something that is artificially harder solely to discourage people from doing it, but could (and ought) to be a simpl…

One person's "intentionally making it more complex" is another person's "waterproof to two meters".

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#88

Post by einr »

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

Are other manufacturers better? They used to be.

Many still are, although unfortunately many follow the path led by Apple. Here's an educational link for those who think everyone else is as bad as Apple:

https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability

I have a HP ProBook myself and as far as laptops it is a joy to work on. Very repair-friendly. I can get to the hard drive, battery, CPU and RAM in minutes with no trouble and no weird tools. The entire bottom of the machine comes off very easily and reveals the exposed and helpfully labeled internals. I upgraded the i3 CPU to an i7 myself in like ten minutes a couple of months ago. I also know for a fact that dust particles have entered the keyboard on more than one occasion yet I am still here, typing away.

Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#89

Post by mrpopo »

kgermino wrote: post #42
hjek wrote: post #2

> After a long life of use, ensure that they are recycled properly. Anyone ever read about Apple's must-shred agreement[0] with recyclers? Is that what "properly" refers to here? > Ensure that Apple products last as long as possible. Anyone read about Apple's recent lawsuit[1] for planned obsolescence in iPhones? [0]: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yp73jw/apple-recy... [1]: https://www.commondreams.org/ne…

[1] badly misrepresents what happened. Throttling peak performance when the battery can’t deliver enough power for it helps people use the phone longer. It’s almost the opposite of planned obsolescence. The alternative is people’s phone shuts down randomly, which is definitely more likely to push them into replacing it. It also is fixed after the battery is replaced. Unless you mean that the battery gettin old is pla…

Throttling performance pushes people into replacing their phone just as much as a worn battery. Probably even more so, since a phone shutting down rapidly and randomly is much more symptomatic of a worn battery, and might entice people to replace the battery instead of the entire phone.

A battery getting old is not planned obsolescence. A hard-to-replace battery is. Apple is a pioneer in that area.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#90

Post by llampx »

xoa wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

> You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. This is understandably a very popular assumption amongst people who like to tinker but it's oversimplified. "Repairability" is only a positive in the absence of any other factors. Devices that are harder to repair can also increase the active matter to dead matter ratio which reduces a whole host of energy and material requi…

Repairability as a goal or standard recognizes that no product is perfect, and that if or when something inside it goes wrong or needs servicing, it should be easy to do so. Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely. They aren't. Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering - not an issue in a desktop monitor or a TV, or even a laptop, but a bigger issue with a daily use item meant to be carried in your pocket.

I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.

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