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Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#81

Post by glangdale »

swoorup wrote: post #37
seibelj wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked at several startups. So far my payout from stock options has been a $7,000 loss, but maybe some of these shares will be worth something... someday! My career was accelerated because of all the experience I had, and in terms of title and skills I got ahead faster. But in terms of total compensation and the number of hairs remaining on my head, I would have much more wealth and many more hairs had I playe…

Do you literally meant that you have lost some hairs. This is the only thing that is holding me back from joining startups

We had our photo taken during an acquisition, and of the engineering staff, 3/4 of us (me included) were all going magnificently bald by the time of the acquisition. It's probably safe to say we would have lost most of our hair anyhow, but it was amusing to see us in photos circa 2006 vs 2013. I would say the due diligence probably cost me a few percent of my hair...

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#82

Post by sixdimensional »

glangdale wrote: post #78
sixdimensional wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have almost the same story. Spent long nights and weekends building a company for a number of years, from the ground up, and I was naive enough to go off a handshake and a verbal promise that my boat would float when all the rest of them did. When it started to look like the company would be sold, I politely asked if we could finalize an agreement in advance of knowing the sale amount, so that all would be…

This is pretty typical behavior for a lot of startups. I once witnessed a situation where management (knowing that most people's options were way underwater) got a 'top slice' agreement where X% of an acquisition would go straight to key personnel. Amusingly, this identical vague mechanism was given 2 different names: "Management top slice" when talking to investors/managers, and "Engineering top slice" when talking…

Seconded, don’t count on verbal agreements, and vet ANY agreement very carefully and with legal and/or tax advice wherever possible.

If they intend for you to reap the reward, they won’t care if you do everything above board and legally. They might even respect you for it.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#83

Post by deanmoriarty »

sixdimensional wrote: post #80
deanmoriarty wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the founders did that? If they made serious money, why not throw at least a bone at you to compensate for the work? Do you think it was all pure greed, or something went wrong in the relationship between you and them before that? If they made 100, why not give you 0.1 and keep the 99.9 for themselves? In my home country, doing something like that would probably cause the founders to be worried about…

I think they had been burned by someone else before, and were not very trustworthy people. I learned later just how shady they were, things I hadn’t seen because I was too busy trying to actually build something that worked. I think after that it was pure greed. It was a “family-run” business and the wealth stayed with “family”.... and I was just an employee. The reason I said I can sleep at night is because later in…

It’s truly horrible. I’ve been at a startup for 4 years now, all my options are vested and partially exercised (including some painful amt tax ugh), but I’m paranoid that at the last minute, if it even arrives to that point, everything will be pulled away from me with some magic trick.

That’s one of the reasons why I am not moving on to other opportunities even if my grant is almost all mature, I don’t want them to “forget my face” when the time comes, it might help them screwing me.

And I’m not talking about dilution, liquidation preferences, ... that stuff is business risk, I’m talking about dealing with greed of people.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#84

Post by sixdimensional »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #83
sixdimensional wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they had been burned by someone else before, and were not very trustworthy people. I learned later just how shady they were, things I hadn’t seen because I was too busy trying to actually build something that worked. I think after that it was pure greed. It was a “family-run” business and the wealth stayed with “family”.... and I was just an employee. The reason I said I can sleep at night is because later in…

It’s truly horrible. I’ve been at a startup for 4 years now, all my options are vested and partially exercised (including some painful amt tax ugh), but I’m paranoid that at the last minute, if it even arrives to that point, everything will be pulled away from me with some magic trick. That’s one of the reasons why I am not moving on to other opportunities even if my grant is almost all mature, I don’t want them to “…

I didn’t stick through it in my case since I was “asked to leave” and had nothing in writing, one of the weirdest experiences of my life but a clear sign that something was not right.

But if you can stick through it I hope that on the other side of it you come out in a good way.

Depending on your agreement and country, one can only hope that what you have protects your interests well and can be enforced.

In my case, I could have gone after them because verbal agreements are actually still valid and enforceable, although complex and legally expensive to pursue. But I couldn’t get myself to do it and by now it is years past the statute of limitations.

I don’t know but somehow greed and survival and the human condition are all inextricably linked. All I can say is I wish you sincerely the best.

I still came out with something at the end - a cautionary tale, a lot more experience, and my honor. Depending on how you measure things, that counts for a lot to me, although it doesn’t necessarily put food on the table, or a roof over your head.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#85

Post by joshenders »

coffeemug wrote: post #62
itronitron wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please write a book on this, or post a link to the book that you have written :)

I'm unlikely to write a book, but here are a few more tidbits that come to mind. Re the above -- I don't mean to imply that any of this is malicious or even conscious on anyone's behalf. I suspect it is for a few people, but I bet most people could pass a lie detector test that they care about their OKRs and the OKRs of their reports. They really, really believe it. But they don't act it. Our brains are really good a…

nailed it

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#86

Post by coffeemug »

sharmi wrote: post #66
coffeemug wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unlikely to write a book, but here are a few more tidbits that come to mind. Re the above -- I don't mean to imply that any of this is malicious or even conscious on anyone's behalf. I suspect it is for a few people, but I bet most people could pass a lie detector test that they care about their OKRs and the OKRs of their reports. They really, really believe it. But they don't act it. Our brains are really good a…

Wow, that is so depressing on so many levels but thanks for calling it out and educating us clueless ones.

It's more helpful to look at it as a social scientist. This is what can be empirically observed about the behavior of a large group of humans under these very specific conditions. It's not good or bad in the same sense that chemistry isn't good or bad. It just is, and can actually be quite fascinating if you look at it from that light!

It's also magical that given all this, everything still works! The products get shipped, the people get paid, the world benefits! Think of it this way -- human behavior is much weirded than one would naively expect, and we manage to self-organize to accomplish all this crazy stuff! Isn't that pretty cool?

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#87

Post by newscracker »

The nature of a startup is long hours and a lot of work, chaos, unpredictability and some reward (a lot more of all these than in other places). A successful startup is not immune to these.

So one dark side is looking back years later and realizing that all those long hours and reward (money) were probably not worth as much as lost relationships and time outside of work.

I don’t like the term “work life balance”, but the lack of it can immensely cause long term issues...many irreversible because there’s no time machine.

Basically, if your work is taking your attention or keeping you away for more than 8 hours a day and also adding continuous stress for a long enough time, then some other things in life have to give...those things usually cannot be replaced effectively at a later time.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#88

Post by nodesocket »

coffeemug wrote: post #62
itronitron wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please write a book on this, or post a link to the book that you have written :)

I'm unlikely to write a book, but here are a few more tidbits that come to mind. Re the above -- I don't mean to imply that any of this is malicious or even conscious on anyone's behalf. I suspect it is for a few people, but I bet most people could pass a lie detector test that they care about their OKRs and the OKRs of their reports. They really, really believe it. But they don't act it. Our brains are really good a…

Thanks for the great insight, but I also have to admit it is incredibly disheartening and bleak. I truly think silicon valley is not a good place for the human psyche as a whole. Quite honestly it breeds negativity, envy, imposter syndrome, which all turn into depression.

It's cliche, but some of the happiest people are farmers, construction workers, or people who physically work on tangible things. Also, I feel people in the bay area compared to the south where I now live are perpetually unhappy and outraged. There is more to life than work. Simple and a slower life is not such a terrible thing.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#89

Post by throwaway09871 »

goatherders wrote: post #55
bengotow wrote: post #17

I'd say there are a couple problems you're likely to have at a successful startup: 1) You (the early engineer) get promoted and are leading the charge, but have no mentors or role models to help you develop your career. 2) You raise a huge Series A / B, and everyone says "spend it in 18 months" so you hire a ton of people quickly, which significantly changes the company culture. Your first attempts at introducing str…

I advise a startup in the bay area and sat in on a meeting with an early investor last week. A plan for raising a series A was laid out and he said "why do you want to raise money outside of being in SV? Nothing you have told me indicates you need funding."

Startup promised options in employment contracts. Three years later, employees find out they were never granted. Very stressful and depressing. What to do? Can you recommend a good attorney in the Bay Area?

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#90

Post by bm1362 »

throwaway292901 wrote: post #47

"Successful" has a different meaning depending on your title. I work for a successful startup and all the c-levels are happy, but as developer #1 I am very unhappy. The goal was acquisition. We developers did our job: we iterated on several products until one of them struck gold and is minting money. We are ready to move on. The founders are enjoying the success and have put less priority on acquisition. As a "stay-u…

Why not talk to the ESO fund to see if they’ll pay your tax bill?
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