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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#81
post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

He could, and still can. Literally nothing's stopping him other than a personal decision to subjectively improve his behavior. You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.

You can, but you shouldn't.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#82
post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

I'm mostly parsing this as external pressure forcing him to change, rather than a comment on the value of the behavior one way or the other. I suspect on net this is going to be seen as martyrdom, with a vocal minority of people who will bring it up in every conversation as a suppression tactic.

EDIT: That having been said, my personal opinion is that Linus could stand to tone it down a bit. He often goes beyond "unrelentingly firm on quality" and into "personal attack", the line between them can be subtle but hopefully he'll figure it out without becoming a pushover.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#83
post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

I see this as two fold. If you hold a high bar with a stick, you might attain your goal of having a high bar—but you'll largely fail to inspire others to keep the bar held high after you leave. If you hold a high bar with carrots (read: empathy, professionalism, understanding), you'll impress your standards (and your values!) on the rest of your organization. Organizations that are led by the latter sorts of leaders last longer and tend to be more successful.

That's not to say that there's no room for being firm—and OSS politics could drive the pope to violence at times—but LT's behavior has crossed the line many times over. I very much look forward to a more approachable kernel leadership approach.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#84

A slowgoing development for him, still I sympathize and wish him the best while wondering ironically if personal issues aside what works best. It brings to mind fundamental organizational and management. Is it better to have a "rude" organization? Calling bullshit early and often instead of polite everything is fine stacks of lies since it would be impolite to point out having O(N!) code just can't work for anything…

Code reviews fly around our team without any trace of vitriol or insults, even when the mistakes are mindnumbling stupid or disagreement on approach is strong. You don't have to be insulting to maintain code quality. If insults are the only way you can make your point, you've got some way bigger personal issues to deal with.

The thing is, being insulting is largely counterproductive. Even where the best response from the person being insulted is that they shrug it off, it still modifies the relationship and attitudes towards the insulter.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#85
post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

I have to wonder if Linux would even be remembered other than as a footnote at this time without his forceful personality being in the mix. Many things fail when they get pecked to death by ducks. His forceful personality carried the day on many occasions.

Or maybe his brashness was irrelevant.

What would Steve Jobs have been known for if not for his turtleneck? /s

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#86
post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.

Do you have relevant examples (or even better, some statistics)? How do you measure this and how do you know if they were assholes or not? I guess you don't have a record of SLT meetings of large companies (as you have access to the emails between Linus and the maintainers).

Leaders of large companies are _usually_ more aggressive, selfish and less agreeable than average people. This is a well-researched topic (and also makes sense intuitively -- leading a Fortune 500 company comes with so unique perks that there's an immense fight for those roles).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#87
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

I don't think it has anything to do with PC and has a lot to do with being C. There's a lot of bravado among older programmers that carries over from a time when they really could do whatever they wanted because stuff needed to get done and a principled, lone gunman solution could actually be a much closer approximation of correct than some BS consensus built monster.

That simply isn't the world we work in anymore. Everything has been done and if it's being done again it's because the subtle mistakes and approximations of the past aren't good enough. Linus' complaints about the scheduler are the best example of what I'm talking about. A scheduler is a super hard problem now and there's a lot of complexity to wrestle with that simply didn't exist in 2001.

Anyway, the kernel is still open and discussion is still happening so I don't think we're in some kind of crisis. Good for Linus to take time off - maybe this will be an opportunity to develop processes that can create a more dynamic open source environment, one less reliant on a few individuals.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#88
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to wonder if Linux would even be remembered other than as a footnote at this time without his forceful personality being in the mix. Many things fail when they get pecked to death by ducks. His forceful personality carried the day on many occasions.

You can be forceful without being an asshole about it.

Sure, but can you be successful in the context in which he was successful? He succeeded against all odds, and has done something great. He's no saint, but none of us are. Like it or not, who he was was instrumental in this success. The parts you admire and the parts you disagree with.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#90
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Men and women express aggression in different ways. While they can both be toxic, female aggression is more acceptable at this time. Linus was forceful at times, but his focus was on the work, not on trying to make people feel bad. Be critical all you want, but his achievement is amazing.

> Linus was forceful at times, but his focus was on the work, not on trying to make people feel bad.

It may have started this way when he began one of his emails, but even he admits the attacks often went from “let me critique your contribution” to “here’s why your contribution sucks and beyond that here’s why I think you suck as a contributor”.

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