EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes • Hacker News Board

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#81

Post by daemin » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #42

daemin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game. Therefore there are two choices: Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine opera…

Which games are you talking about that require you to open loot boxes in order to have fun in the game? The most popular games that I can think of with loot boxes, Hearthstone, Dota 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, PUBG, all either have strictly cosmetic items in the loot boxes, or have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay. Saying that major developers are creating games that require you to buy loot boxes in orde…

The classic one is Star Wars Battlefront 2 where they altered the progression system so that you either grind for an incredibly long time (much longer than reviewers had to) to get the better characters. There was an uproar about it - and the most negatively voted reddit comment in history - and then they changed the game and removed the loot boxes.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#82

Post by pdpi » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

Buffodecon wrote: post #2

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, I'm a libertarian and don't like regulations. On the second hand, these kinda regulations make sense.

Beliefs don't have to be black and white. You're allowed to be mostly for deregulation, while still finding that some key bits of regulation make sense.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#83

Post by daemin » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #46

daemin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game. Therefore there are two choices: Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine opera…

including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator. In France so presumably Belgium too, gambling companies are taxed on turnover.

In Australia I'm not sure how much a poker machine (slot machine) maker is taxed over and above the regular company tax, but I know operators of such machines are taxed more (and I think that's a state based tax).

Somehow though if EA, Activision, etc were taxed like slot machine operators then they would not be as inclined to include this stuff in their games.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#84

Post by tomhoward » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

comboy wrote: post #35

Should all gambling be illegal then? I fail to see the problem with it. If somebody feels that's where she wants to put her money - great. If you arguing that's poor use of somebody's money then you may also want to ban whole lot of foods and gadgets. Those can be addictive too.

Good laws recognise that where preferences/tendencies are likely to become addictions for some people, they cease to be merely conscious "wants" or "choices", and thus some level of control is required to limit the damage both to the individual and to society.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#85

Post by chupasaurus » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

Flow wrote: post #76

chupasaurus wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first year of BF4 after release was pretty much a very long open beta.

And another thing I hate about the yearly releases of CoD and BF: The previous versions more or less die when the new ones are released. As someone who play games on macOS, the delay before the Mac/Linux versions are released makes it so when you get to play the games, most of your friends play the next version or something else. I've stopped buying games like CoD and BF because of this. It seems only Blizzard and Va…

Name a single Blizzard game with official support of Linux. They are also had banned accounts for playing their games through Wine, but they've stopped 5 or so years ago.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#86

Post by daemin » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #61

I'm a FIFA player and this is a complex situation. "Packs" in FIFA are not solely used for cosmetic items but for actual virtual players with distinct play characteristics. EA are trying to turn FIFA into a eSports game (see the recent FIFA eWorld Cup) and the majority of play takes place in the "Ultimate Team" mode. To get the high calibre players you'd use to build up your experience and reputation in UT you either…

I don't see how they can have it both ways. Either the game is an eSport where the most skillful person wins, or they can have lootboxes where the person that spends the most wins.

So in the first case there is no super significant difference between the players on the field, which means there is no point to buy loot boxes to get better players.

Or in the second case it isn't really an eSport because the person that spends the most money (and is luckiest with the players that they get) will more likely win.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#87

Post by daemin » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

cyanbane wrote: post #70

gambiting wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With MTG you can skip the whole booster buying and just get the cards you want from people who have them. The rarest most desirable cards in standard are $10-$50 at most. If you want a rare overwatch skin you have no option but keep buying boxes until you get it.

This is a great point. No post-market locks the user into only purchasing via loot crates.

Which is unfortunately one of the ways that the companies try to avoid being labelled as gambling, because they do not allow you to sell or trade the items that you get. There is no secondary market for these games nor a way to cash out.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#88

Post by falcolas » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

RobLach wrote: post #43

beezischillin wrote: post #4

Video game publishers have been trying consistently to implement a "less for more" attitude when it comes to their products. The whole lootbox trend on a whole was the peak of having their cake and eating it (wanting to "chase whales" like the free to play model but charging full price for the product). The only surprising thing about this is that there hasn't been a lot more push-back a way earlier.

That’s not true at all. Video Games have been growing with such a strong trajectory that what consumers expect at a bare minimum in a new release is a large increase in risk for a game publisher. For example Super Mario World was made by less than 20 people and sold for $69.99 at launch in 1990. That’s nearly $140 in today’s dollars. Now take into account that a modern AAA game has at a minimum a 150 person staff, wi…

Something that's not brought up often with this argument - the sales scope for modern games. Super Mario World was doing well if it broke 10,000 or 100,000 sales. In contrast a major game these days will break 100,000,000 sales.

$60 is also a bit of a red herring, since $60 is the base price for a game - when you start throwing in all of the special features, the price of a game climbs to over twice that amount. And that doesn't even cover the microtransactions not included in the gambling category - 4-5 expansion packs each the price of an indie game, skins, poses, voice lines, etc.

Let's not forget that EA have openly stated to their shareholders that not having loot boxes in their games doesn't affect their revenue. Either they're lying to their shareholders, or to us. I wonder which one it is.

These companies are raking in tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in profit. That's not the sign of a fragile market.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#89

Post by falcolas » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #42

daemin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game. Therefore there are two choices: Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine opera…

Which games are you talking about that require you to open loot boxes in order to have fun in the game? The most popular games that I can think of with loot boxes, Hearthstone, Dota 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, PUBG, all either have strictly cosmetic items in the loot boxes, or have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay. Saying that major developers are creating games that require you to buy loot boxes in orde…

Just look at the games listed in this article: FIFA. The output from these loot boxes directly impacts your ability to play the game. It's not just cosmetic.

Re: EA reportedly under criminal investigation in Belgium due to FIFA's loot boxes

#90

Post by falcolas » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #69

efdee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the ability to bet is freedom. Being seduced (avoiding the word 'forced' here) into betting under the guise of a game... not so much.

I don’t see the nuance between a loot box and a slot machine designed to extract $50-$100/hr from a bettor.

With a slot machine, you have the chance to win money back. With loot boxes, you don't (any "rewards" are forever locked up in the game).