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Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

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Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#81

Post by mikeash »

freerobby wrote: post #72
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s infotainment and IT infrastructure is unrelated to their safety. Only if it's deliberately isolated in the vehicle. It should be. Aaaand, it isn't: the firmware upgrades to all other car computing elements go through it.

Runtime isolation is distinct from compile/build-time isolation. You're citing the latter, but it's the former that matters. Tesla gets this right, e.g. an interrupt in the MCU does not have any effect on braking, drive-by-wire, or ADAS systems while a car is in operation.

Just to back this up: I have rebooted both my MCU and my instrument panel while driving. Critical systems are not affected.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#82

Post by 1123581321 »

java_script wrote: post #18
xenihn wrote: post #5

I hope this means we get to see YOSPOS referenced in mainstream media as an actual source.

I hope this means HN finds the gazillion-page thread mocking HN there.

I think a lot of HN readers over a certain age have spent time on SA. It’s easy to code switch and I wouldn’t have trouble mocking my own comments there in the house style.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#83

Post by Fnoord »

sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Why is this interesting or surprising? Of course almost all challengers have hacky tech under the hood because they don't have the resources. Winning from that position is possible not because of generally better tech but by delivering something that the incumbents don't. Remember the demo of the first iPhone (vs the huge expertise of Nokia). Or how Microsoft won the desktop starting from a single user, cooperative m…

Remember Theranos?

For every good success example, there is a good failure example.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#84

Post by blindwatchmaker »

GW150914 wrote: post #76
java_script wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this means HN finds the gazillion-page thread mocking HN there.

Do you have a link? It sounds like it could be both interesting and amusing.

seems to be here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=36...

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#85

Post by f4rtcl0ps »

compostable wrote: post #35
Mistletoe wrote: post #3

Sometimes I miss the carburetor.

Did you ever have to stand outside in the winter, in ice and show, with the hood propped open, spraying starting fluid into the carburetor, and manually holding the throttle open, so that your engine could get to the proper temperature? Did you ever floor a car and have the engine shut off because there was too much fuel? No thanks, I don't want to go back to those days!

No because I never lived in a frozen hellhole filled with dirty swedes and also I don't drive like an idiot

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#86

Post by eecc »

phkahler wrote: post #68
8_hours_ago wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rockets fly with a heavily customized Linux install My jaw hit the floor the first time I heard this. Why Linux instead of an RTOS?? Apparently Tesla's autopilot also runs Linux, which seems like a huge accident waiting to happen (pun intended).

>> Apparently Tesla's autopilot also runs Linux, which seems like a huge accident waiting to happen (pun intended). Not to worry, the tight control loops the require determinism all run on Arduino boards.

Not sure if you’re trolling or not. Well played

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#87

Post by Nokinside »

The really scary part of this is how appears that they apparently run safety critical updates trough this same crappy system. If someone manages to slip in a modification that bricks Teslas or worse, makes them do quick left turn in in the morning rush hour, they can sink the company.

There are lots of people with motivation to pull it off. Either for money or for some political reason nothing to do with Tesla.

Tesla is not alone. Hardware companies in general don't think about software security at all. They are security nightmares waiting to happen.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#88

Post by eequah9L »

lowry wrote: post #25
oxymoron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the Toyota uncontrolled acceleration bug and the report that came as a result of the trial. It seems like software is a bit of a second thought for some incumbents too.

It is common knowledge that Toyota uncontrolled acceleration bug was completely imaginary, see for example http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game

Check out this, and the linked court transcripts linked therein: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...

The security researchers who were expert witnesses in the Toyota case and that analyzed Toyota's source code testified in court that they managed to reproduce the unintended acceleration with a real car on a dynamometer.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#89

Post by blindwatchmaker »

vevoe wrote: post #51

They've been going 100mph for years now. It doesn't come as a surprise to me that they haven't gone back and made it pretty. While not even remotely on the same scale, I just spent 3 weeks building an app as fast as possible because my client's old one was causing 75% of their support calls. The code isn't pretty, but it works and it works a lot better than the old one. I know deep down that code is going to stay ugl…

They are making vehicles, not apps.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#90

Post by floatboth »

mikeash wrote: post #80
devy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the infotainment system caused the MCUs to reboot while someone traveling "130mph on San Mateo Bridge" and that caused the break system to segfault due to unconventional way of loading parts firmware, it might be a life&death situation, easily. Examples in that threads go on, literally hundreds!

I don't understand how that could happen. MCU reboots, ???, brake system segfaults? What goes in the middle?

Probably everything has access to everything on the CAN bus.

IIRC car manufactures are irresponsibly lazy and never properly air-gap infotainment from critical stuff.

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