Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network • Hacker News Board

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#81

Post by dnomad » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

lightbyte wrote: post #78

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what are the US kill stats up to recently? There are no good guys.

That is not relevant to the discussion

What's really funny about this whole affair is that everything that people accuse China of doing has actually been done by the US. There's some powerful projection at here. We know for a fact that the NSA does intercept telecom devices on their way out of the country and so the US actually does export compromised devices [1]. We know for a fact that US telecom manufacturers export equipment that has been pre-broken by the NSA [2]. We know for a fact that the NSA aggressively penetrates foreign networks at the deepest levels, even for so called allies. [3] All of this is a matter of record, it's been documented and verified by several agencies.

But somehow despite all this we're supposed to be very, very afraid of Huawei and ZTE? The total lack of integrity at work here is a bit breathtaking but it's come to be expected.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...

[2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/cisco...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Parliamentary_Committee...

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#82

Post by A2017U1 » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #56

jazoom wrote: post #29

"This new architecture provides a way to circumvent traditional security controls by exploiting equipment in the edge of the network – exploitation which may affect overall network integrity and availability, as well as the confidentiality of customer data." Hey Australian Government. You know what also protects confidentiality of customer data? Encryption.

Encryption isn't a magic bullet. If you have good visibility into the network there's a hell of a lot you can do with traffic analysis and metadata. Plus, if you own the end-user device you can just go around the encryption since the data, by definition, has to be displayed to the user decrypted. It's a hard problem. Encryption is part of the solution, but it's not the solution.

Excellent response, I've become quite sceptical of the Australian calls for encryption backdoors, frankly think the government knows they aren't necessary and can back down to appease the public while silently scooping up everything. Catchy lines like the laws of maths quote is a hugely successful distraction.

Mandatory metadata is already retained for 2 years at the consumers expense, no one has ever released how much or what is actually kept as all freedom of information requests by journalists have been denied. It's estimated that every adult generates around 15000 data points a day, it's known that mobile phone signal strength is kept allowing triangulation within 100m or so of every citizen every few minutes.

Last year alone there was over 300,000 warrantless requests made by 60 government agencies, many more are legally allowed to make requests, right down to small local councils in the middle of nowhere with 15 staff members and obscure agencies such as horse racing officials.

There's absolutely no oversight, I'm stuggling to imagine how many people it would actually take to investigate around 1000 requests a day, every day of the week.

It's only a matter of time before some serious abuse of the system occurs.

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#83

Post by Aunche » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #80

pelario wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fan or defensor of China here; but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries; so I would be much much worried about US-based companies that provide searching or social networking services

but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries Not exactly sure how'd you quantify it, but I think the people of Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, Cambodia, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Singapore, Tibet, Myanmar, and India might take issue with that claim[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo...

That's nothing compared to intervention involving the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni.... What's worse, is that these wars are often catalysts for even worse Civil wars like in Cambodia, Iraq, or Libya.

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#84

Post by mijamo » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #80

pelario wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fan or defensor of China here; but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries; so I would be much much worried about US-based companies that provide searching or social networking services

but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries Not exactly sure how'd you quantify it, but I think the people of Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, Cambodia, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Singapore, Tibet, Myanmar, and India might take issue with that claim[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo...

Let's count have many government have been overthrown by each, how many wars have they both been involved, how many political parties or rebellions financed?

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#85

Post by Aunche » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

fivecents wrote: post #66

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But China has a worse record of human rights abuses. In regards to intervention in other countries, China consumes them. Tibet, Taiwan no longer exist according to China. They've all got bad history. If God existed and was to strike down on the unworthy nations of the world, very few would be spared. And I dislike this as much as any rational person (hello? rational people...?) but if it came to choosing sides in wha…

you forgot to mention North Korea and its people. China made North Korea's existence possible by backing Kim. Still, China is deporting North Korean refugees back to North Korea, even though it knows those people die of torture & "execution shows". oh and there's the organ harvesting: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-fac...

If you're going to bring up North Korea, you might as well bring up the long, long list of corrupt dictators the US supported or even brought into power. Batista in Cuba, the Shah of Iran, Carlos Castillo Armas of Guatamala, Saddam Hussein, and the Taliban are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#86

Post by refurb » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

mijamo wrote: post #84

refurb wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries Not exactly sure how'd you quantify it, but I think the people of Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, Cambodia, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Singapore, Tibet, Myanmar, and India might take issue with that claim[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo...

Let's count have many government have been overthrown by each, how many wars have they both been involved, how many political parties or rebellions financed?

Going back how long? China's been around for a lot longer!

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#87

Post by wenc » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #49

ethbro wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to take issue with this, because I see this line of argument a lot on HN recently. There is a fundamental difference between "like in kind" and "like in severity". Do the US and China both monitor telecom? Yes. Has the US built a national firewall? No. Do the US and China both have legal processes for acquiring court ordered telecom intercepts? Yes. Is the US legal system wholly subordinate to political goa…

I really dislike the "they're both the same" arguments. People do the same about the US political parties (and use this as an excuse to either not vote, or vote for their favorite side, based on this). This thinking allows people to let the worse offender off the hook.

It's fallacious outcome of analogical thinking which says "because two things have some things in common, they have everything in common".

It's a pretty common fallacy [1], and easily deconstructed if recognized.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_m...

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#88

Post by sangnoir » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

tynpeddler wrote: post #70

The west is slowly starting to realize something that China has realized for years; economic policy is not a question of economics but of geopolitical strategy. Free markets are nice in theory (and often in practice), but once you let in bad actors with the clout of a nation state, all the usual assumption behind free markets no longer apply. It's pretty disappointing that, based on what we now know, western economis…

> The west is slowly starting to realize something that China has realized for years; economic policy is not a question of economics but of geopolitical strategy.

I do not believe that this is a recent realization - this goes back to at least the Dutch East India company (VOC). The foundation of the British economy were the vast resources of the British Empire (read colonies) for many decades.

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#89

Post by tynpeddler » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #88

tynpeddler wrote: post #70

The west is slowly starting to realize something that China has realized for years; economic policy is not a question of economics but of geopolitical strategy. Free markets are nice in theory (and often in practice), but once you let in bad actors with the clout of a nation state, all the usual assumption behind free markets no longer apply. It's pretty disappointing that, based on what we now know, western economis…

> The west is slowly starting to realize something that China has realized for years; economic policy is not a question of economics but of geopolitical strategy. I do not believe that this is a recent realization - this goes back to at least the Dutch East India company (VOC). The foundation of the British economy were the vast resources of the British Empire (read colonies) for many decades.

It's one of those things that the west knew and then forgot in the 90's after the cold war ended and we realized how great free markets were at improving people's lives.

Re: Australia bans Huawei and ZTE from supplying technology for its 5G network

#90

Post by iforgotpassword » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #58

pelario wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fan or defensor of China here; but the US has way more history of intervention in other countries; so I would be much much worried about US-based companies that provide searching or social networking services

But China has a worse record of human rights abuses. In regards to intervention in other countries, China consumes them. Tibet, Taiwan no longer exist according to China. They've all got bad history. If God existed and was to strike down on the unworthy nations of the world, very few would be spared. And I dislike this as much as any rational person (hello? rational people...?) but if it came to choosing sides in wha…

> This may be based purely on cultural familiarity, but, well, there it is.

Very much this.

> In regards to intervention in other countries, China consumes them. Tibet, Taiwan no longer exist according to China.

Oh dear. Taiwan never existed in the first place according to China because they didn't accept them becoming independent. (Protip: google how many countries actually regard Taiwan an independent nation). And Tibet? It has pretty much belonged to China for over 600 years. Tibet has been very poor even compared to China, and over the past 50 years China has greatly supported the region, establishing basic infrastructure like hospitals, schools etc. You usually never hear about this in the west though, since it doesn't fit the whole "free Tibet" narrative.

Yes there is a lot wrong with China, as with any country on this planet. I certainly don't need to get into US atrocities here for some obligatory whataboutism. But at least get your facts straight when criticising. Like when that Falun gong organ harvesting comes up. If you try to unravel this story you find no halfway credible sources and always end up with this Canadian politician who conveniently always resurfaces with that story when some election is coming up. Or recently there was a report about one million captive Uighurs in China (with a population of only 8 million), where the only source was a UN Secretary saying this "not representing the UN"...

It's sad, because we so proudly compare our free press to the state controlled propaganda in China, but for most people just knowing we have a free press equals not ever having to doubt anything the news say, at least not if it's about another country across the world you already know is evil.