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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#81

Post by dx87 »

nindalf wrote: post #66
Leary wrote: post #39

Outfought the humans in teamfights, other than that not sure how much long term strategic thought was shown.

It was frustrating to see it do so many things well but make strange decisions otherwise - poor warding. Some wards were simply wasted. (Wards are small, invisible, immovable units that grant vision) - using powerful long cool down spells to earn gold instead of keeping it in reserve for fights - not recognising that one of the lanes needed to be pushed out. Eventually this bit them in the ass. - using buybacks where…

I don't know if it's still the case, but the OpenAI developers said that the reason why it sometimes wastes wards and smokes is because it doesn't know how to drop items, so it'll just use them to free up inventory space if it wants to buy something new.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#82

Post by whymauri »

noxvilleza wrote: post #75
whymauri wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking historically at team ELO and how squads have gone on 27-series win streaks, this is probably right. Though I think the gap between "low-tier" TI teams and TI winners is getting much tighter. Group B at TI8 was so close the difference between upper-bracket and lower-bracket was 1 game for most of the teams.

*Elo, not ELO :)

lol, good catch. Gotta give Arpad his credit :)

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#83

Post by StavrosK »

dx87 wrote: post #79
StavrosK wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he blink in? Is there a delay there?

There's no delay, but when people looked at the replay, Earth Shaker was actually visible when he thought he wasn't. The AI that disabled him had precast his spell on the out of range Earth Shaker, so when Earth Shaker blinked in to range, the precast spell went off in the following server tick.

That makes sense, thanks.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#84

Post by dx87 »

foota wrote: post #44
balls187 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropped the first game. Pretty funny that the last openAI bot attempted to feed mid.

Not familiar with dota but I watched the tail end of the stream, what does this mean?

Since players get gold and experience points for killing an enemy hero, bad mannered players who want to ruin a game for their own team will repeatedly run down the middle lane to feed gold and experience to the enemy team, allowing them to win faster. It looked like the AI was doing that, but other people who played against the AI said it's more like a last ditch effort to try and keep the enemies out of their base when the AI doesn't know what to do when it's on the verge of losing.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#85

Post by Strom »

nindalf wrote: post #49
roenxi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his team isn't the strongest (they placed 17-18th during this TI) Oh, is that all :P. Assuming a 2x buffer for players who are good but not competitive, there are maybe 200 humans in the world who are better at DotA. If mastery is 1 in 10,000, these people are masters.

No, there are way more than 200 players better than Pain, all due respect to them. That’s clear by looking at leaderboards. But team dynamics and synergy in this game matter so much that they are definitely in the top 20 of teams regardless of their individual skill. Seeing OpenAI do so well against this team impressed the hell out of me.

A really big factor making up your ranking on the leaderboard is your ability to play in a chaotic game where your team and yourself aren't on the same page. Just taking the top players from the leaderboard (who aren't already on a top team) and putting them together makes up a team that is good enough to win against other similar random teams (hence their high rank) but can't win against actual teams, which is evidenced all the time in the open qualifers where actual teams that consist of lower ranked players beat them. TI open qualifer / regional qualifer / actual event placements are way better indicators on how good a team is than pub leaderboards.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#86

Post by noxvilleza »

makoz wrote: post #65
noxvilleza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually internationally delayed reactions to make it more fair (200ms of delay added).

Watching the match there seemed to be a crazy amount of instant Euls and what not. I doubt a player is about to react to a blink initiation and click Euls/Hex in the same amount of time. It'd be a lot more fair for them to calibrate against the reaction time of pro-players across the same scenarios. (I doubt pros can hit 200ms consistently)

That or there's something like 200ms "windows" in which API sync occurs - so if someone Blinks next to you you can react within 1 tick (33ms) if the timing is right.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#88

Post by Strom »

nindalf wrote: post #55
el_devo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, as the sibling poster said, there is a 200ms reaction speed restriction on OpenAI. Also note that OpenAI is using the Dota 2 bot API (its input is not pixels, and its outputs are not mouse actions and keystrokes), so it has more precise information than the human team on things like unit coordinates and can target its actions more exactly.

This 200ms restriction seems really slow, but it isn’t. It feels extremely fast, to the point where some heroes and tactics used by humans are useless or impossible. For example, one of the humans played a hero called Axe. It was literally impossible to land one of his skills because it takes 400ms to use it. I’ve seen a lot of professional Dota but I’ve never seen Axe calls being dodged so perfectly and consistently…

200ms is a good measurement on how fast a skilled human can react with a single keypress like activating BKB or phase shift. Players like VP.Noone can be seen doing such reactionary moves even faster than 200ms. Double clicks will already take longer due to slow fingers, which would be the self eul's to avoid axe's call. The moves where eul's was used on axe or blink dagger to escape, well those require players to also move the mouse accurately, which takes even more time.

If OpenAI wishes to have human-like mechanical limitations to make things more about strategy, then they should definitely start adding some sort of action performing delays to actions based on roughly how long a skilled player would take to do them.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#89

Post by Strom »

dx87 wrote: post #79
StavrosK wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he blink in? Is there a delay there?

There's no delay, but when people looked at the replay, Earth Shaker was actually visible when he thought he wasn't. The AI that disabled him had precast his spell on the out of range Earth Shaker, so when Earth Shaker blinked in to range, the precast spell went off in the following server tick.

That's not what happened. The 200ms delay worked as intended. The reddit thread counting the frames can be seen here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/94vdpm/openai_hex_wa...

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#90

Post by ionforce »

balls187 wrote: post #34
Analemma_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite a normal game with no restrictions because it's a pre-selected hero pick from a limited pool instead of a full draft, but it's still very cool. Interesting that OpenAI seems to prefer deathballing, but it makes sense: its main advantage over humans is probably tactical and in teamfights, and 5-man maximizes your options. The human strategy should probably be to split push, but one of the commentators (who i…

I recall reading somewhere that the real advantage AI had was in it's ability to come up with bizarre strategies that confuse human opponents.

I'm skeptical that you read this somewhere. AI doesn't "come up" with strategies. It's likely something that's been discovered in training and then mechanically repeated. But it doesn't "come up" with strategies out of nowhere.
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