Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#81

Post by Nadya » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

BryantD wrote: post #37

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

That common argument rests on norms established by millennia of relatively difficult communication. Best not to assume that the same people would come to the same conclusions today. For example, QAnon believers have not had their speech restricted. That conspiracy theory is as open as anything you could name. People have challenged it. It's still going. If you believe that challenging terrible ideas makes those who h…

>I am refuting the misconception that shedding light on bad ideas makes them go away.

It doesn't make them go away. It allows them to be refuted - which hopefully stems at least some of the indoctrination that would otherwise occur only in private.

If everyone I've ever known tells me vaccines are evil and I never am told or shown otherwise - I'll grow up continuing to think vaccines are evil. If you refuse to let me speak about vaccines that only further proves that you're evil and trying to hide the truth - and strengthens my indoctrination. Now, poor arguments against anti-vaccers also serve to strength the indoctrination so there's some bad with the good... (Also just to be certain on things: "you" and "I" are used generically for easier writing, I support and believe in vaccines.)

There are also plenty of bad ideas that do die to public scrutiny - think of anytime anyone has ever been talked out of "doing something stupid" because they shared what they had planned to do.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#82

Post by braythwayt » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

That argument works well in relatively small social groups where people generally can be relied upon to act in good faith, and where there are social disincentives to clinging to bad ideas after they have been refuted.

When you have a small group with social bonds, you don't have to worry about a bad actor constantly repeating their already-refuted arguments to people who haven't heard the refutation.

But when you have the whole internet as your audience, no matter how many times you are refuted, you can say it again and a whole group of people will be hearing it for the first time.

I have been on the Internet since the 80s. What I have personally found is that a lot of its social norms were lifted from academia, and they work very well as defaults in a new social media context. Like Hacker News when it was first launched.

But eventually, every "social medium" on the Internet has its "Eternal September," when the number of new folks in any conversation outweighs the old hands. At that point, the social norms that worked for the small, cohesive group no longer work.

And worse, there are specialist parasites who exploit people's reluctance to change their social norms, and the act in outrageously bad faith.

Sites like HN have survived by changing. For all of the popularity on HN of "unrestricted free speech," HN is actually moderated, and that's why it works.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#83

Post by devmunchies » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

slater wrote: post #50

driverdan wrote: post #47

> Neo-Nazi deletes anti-Semitic posts from 'alt-right' Twitter Who writes these terrible headlines? Why do these blogspam sites refuse to put the actual topic in the subject? This makes it sound like Twitter is alt-right. It's not even accurate since Gab isn't political or "alt-right," Nazis use it because they refuse to censor.

> Gab isn't political or "alt-right" haha, good one!

its the last recourse for the alt-right because other platforms censor them. I'm sure if you posted far-left stuff on there it wouldn't be censored either, but there is no point because most social media platforms don't censor far-left thoughts anyway.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#84

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#85

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #79

lylecubed wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. Not to get too far off topic, but is this actually true in practice in the real world? Scientific studies have shown that the idea that gets repeated the most often is the idea that "wins". A bad idea gets repeated and spread every time it gets criticized. If the idea proves more "credible" than the critic…

I would like to know this as well. Case in point, when I was a kindergarten teacher, kids wouldn't have a concept of race. I'd have white girls asking me if I could put their hair in braids like "the tan girls." But by 4th grade I'd be teaching about slavery, racism, etc, and the kids would be then learning about a concept that was utterly nonsensical to the non-racism-indoctrinated kids. So I'm wondering what would…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#86

Post by CM30 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host.

The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes, they're the internet equivalent to the electricity company or the water company. They're the internet equivalent to a phone service provider or ISP.

Why do/did ISPs have to deal with net neutrality while large hosting companies and registrars get free reign? The power company can't cut off your service because you offended someone online or what not.

If you want to argue the internet is a place for free speech, then it needs places you can host content/register domains/whatever that act like a public square, not a shopping centre.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#87

Post by pandasun » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

chvid wrote: post #38

Who are the organisations pushing for these bans? Are they completely anonymous?

It's the same people who are downvoting you, it's anonymous people that can't handle different political views. Yesterday it was Alex Jones, now it's Gab, Voat will be next, then The_Donald etc.

Sticks and stones is a foreign concept to people reporting these sites. They want everyone to agree with them. And since most of the major hosting companies have that liberal culture going on, they will happily ban them.

Now watch my post get downvoted and flagged :)

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#88

Post by ilove_banh_mi » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #66

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

On the other hand, there's no principle that requires an entity like Microsoft to support services it or its customers find repugnant.

What do you think of a bakery refusing to make a wedding cake for people they disapprove of?

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#89

Post by will_dev_4_food » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #82

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

That argument works well in relatively small social groups where people generally can be relied upon to act in good faith, and where there are social disincentives to clinging to bad ideas after they have been refuted. When you have a small group with social bonds, you don't have to worry about a bad actor constantly repeating their already-refuted arguments to people who haven't heard the refutation. But when you ha…

When you say it’s like this one way but not the other, you have conceded to relativism. You have basically said there is a time and place for stealing someone’s wallet, and that acting as a moral agent in society can be suspended under the right conditions.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#90

Post by h4b4n3r0 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

Slippery slope, if I've ever seen one. This can and will be used against legitimate dissidents and protesters at some point, that I can pretty much guarantee. Bottom line: I'd be much more comfortable if takedowns could only be done in response to illegal activity on the account, and only after a court order. Otherwise some techno-bureaucrat serves as a judge, jury, and executioner, and I'm categorically not OK with that.