Young people don’t want construction jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#81

Post by TangoTrotFox » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #11

Wow, the entire article doesn't mention once what the average wage for entry-level construction workers is. That's probably a huge part of the puzzle -- to omit that seems almost intentionally misleading, or at least bad journalism. Also, construction is a job that's notoriously hard on your body. You can't count on being able to do it into your 60s like office work, and one bad accident can end your career in constr…

Here you go:

[1] Construction Equipment Operators ($22/hour median)

[2] Carpenters ($22/hour median)

[3] Construction Laborers and Helpers ($16/hour median)

[4] Food and Beverage Serving ($10/hour median)

The longevity argument ignores the fact that many careers today are focusing on younger and younger workers as a means of effecting cheap labor. Easy to measure labor costs, not so easy to measure labor skill. How would you put the prospects of a 60 year old software developer looking for work?

---

[1] - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/construc...

[2] - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpente...

[3] - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/construc...

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#82

Post by Bluecobra » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #28

dccoolgai wrote: post #8

Why would they? You've spent the last 30 years telling them not to do those jobs, devaluing them with globalization and de-unionizing them to make sure those jobs don't create any kind of sustainable lifestyle for the people that do them. Someone on HN a while back gave some good advice: whenever you see "people won't do X job", append in your mind the qualifier "for Y underpaid salary/benefits package".

And part of telling them not to do those jobs was the college for everyone idea. It was a good ideal, but the problem is, going to college and getting that English 4-year degree doesn't really help you get a job that pays enough to pay off those student loans and save for retirement. What they said on Prairie Home Companion was correct, everyone does thing their child is exceptional and should go to college instead o…

Maybe the federal government should get out of the loan business and make it legal to declare bankruptcy to escape student loan debt. Colleges have every incentive to enroll as many students as possible and charge whatever they want because the loans are guaranteed by wage garnishment.

This draws parallels to the easy credit that was extended in the last housing collapse to people that shouldn't had mortgages for houses they can't afford in the first place.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#83

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

lowercased wrote: post #58

patrickaljord wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few people in construction, they started working for someone by fixing doors, do painting etc. until they learned enough to find their own clients. It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to get fixed and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even door to door knocking to check if people need some fixes. These people I know now hire their own workers (and still wor…

> It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to get fixed and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even door to door knocking to check if people need some fixes. And... treat it like a business. Show up on time. Answer your phone/text/emails. If you need to cancel, give notice. I'm continually flummoxed at how generally bad service industries are in many areas. We had one guy…

At what cost might he earn more money? He loses socioeconomic status by being a landscaper, so his value in the dating market drops. He sacrifices health by being out in the sun all the time, inhaling fuel, increased risk of injury from driving around everywhere. Maybe he can have his own business someday, and have others do the work, but is he wise to play those odds if he also has a decent chance at becoming a doctor/lawyer/engineer/trader/banker?

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#84

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

dccoolgai wrote: post #8

Why would they? You've spent the last 30 years telling them not to do those jobs, devaluing them with globalization and de-unionizing them to make sure those jobs don't create any kind of sustainable lifestyle for the people that do them. Someone on HN a while back gave some good advice: whenever you see "people won't do X job", append in your mind the qualifier "for Y underpaid salary/benefits package".

The jobs globalization devalues least are those that require physical presence - such as construction.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#85

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #14

conanbatt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isnt a market for that: increased wages would increase house prices and the developer estimates he cant sell the house. If land were cheaper you would see rising wages.

If there isn't a market for it then there isn't a shortage of labor -- the correct equilibrium point has been found. And yet, they're claiming a shortage. They want to eat their cake and have it too.

If the amount of workers is down, and the wages are similar or up, then you have a "shortage". In comparison to the point you measure of course.

Construction pays rather well actually, though it does have high strain on the body.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#86

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

OldSchoolJohnny wrote: post #24

conanbatt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isnt a market for that: increased wages would increase house prices and the developer estimates he cant sell the house. If land were cheaper you would see rising wages.

I think companies have enjoyed historically high profits for a long time now and are simply loath to give that up. What is a reasonable, sustainable level of profit that benefits everyone? It's certainly not what we've seen for the last decade at least. Profits are sky high and wages are deeply stagnant. I've run my own company for decades and I can tell you there isn't a business person alive who will willingly say…

Profits are not what make wages go down. Profits make wages go up, because then more gets invested and capital competes for labor. We are also in a decade since the recession of record profits, but that might not be so in the next decade or so (from a macro perspective).

Putting a ceiling on profits will not raise wages.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#87

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #15

conanbatt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isnt a market for that: increased wages would increase house prices and the developer estimates he cant sell the house. If land were cheaper you would see rising wages.

"a labor shortage that has meant fewer homes built and rising prices " (emhasis added) So are prices rising or aren't they?

You can have rising prices and less sales. Its important to look at volume as well.

And land probably is what increased prices the most in the share of costs for developing, due to macro economic reasons.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#88

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #74

greenhatman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why don't they just pay workers more if they need more. Let demand drive price. This is a clear example of where you don't need a union. Because the companies will simply have to pay more. No need for a union to negotiate higher wages.

... they aren't paying workers more though, because there's no unions around to give the workers enough bargaining power. This is why unions are needed -- a random worker needs his job more than the company needs him, and is not on equal bargaining footage. If your argument actually worked, then they would be paying workers more. But they aren't, so it doesn't work, and unions are needed.

If the companies could increase their profits by hiring more workers they would do it. Unless the union can sell the houses at a higher price or make its workers more productive, the union can't solve the equation.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#89

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #41

wccrawford wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like $14.07. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Labore... Even "Construction Worker" doesn't bring it up much ($14.75), which means there's nothing in that career directly. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Worker... The next step in that career is to be a manager or foreman. The Foreman only gets $22.36. ($38k/yr) https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Fore…

Depends on the market you're in and what you can do. > A crane operator in New York City earns $82.15 an hour in base pay and benefits, according to the Engineer News-Record, a trade publication. That's well's above the $66 an hour he would earn in Chicago or the $39 an hour in Washington, D.C. > But the real reason New York crane operators and other operating engineers earn such big salaries is overtime and benefits…

Thats unions, but such thing also reduces the amount of housing and construction you can make.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#90

Post by lowercased » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #83

lowercased wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to get fixed and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even door to door knocking to check if people need some fixes. And... treat it like a business. Show up on time. Answer your phone/text/emails. If you need to cancel, give notice. I'm continually flummoxed at how generally bad service industries are in many areas. We had one guy…

At what cost might he earn more money? He loses socioeconomic status by being a landscaper, so his value in the dating market drops. He sacrifices health by being out in the sun all the time, inhaling fuel, increased risk of injury from driving around everywhere. Maybe he can have his own business someday, and have others do the work, but is he wise to play those odds if he also has a decent chance at becoming a doct…

Nothing saying he couldn't hire more people now. There's (imo) an unmet need for quality service providers. Maybe it's just local to my area, and everyone else is doing great(?)