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European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

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Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#81

Post by cncrnd »

This line in the article got to me, "The fine would top the EU’s €2.4 billion antitrust decision against Google just over a year ago."

It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporations. I wonder how much of the large fines is attributed to prosecutors or politicians trying to make a name for themselves.

Anyone know how often these record fines hold up on appeal?

Edit:

Wow, lots of people triggered by this comment. Must be because it's between 4AM and 7AM in the US while being the afternoon in most of Europe.

I stand by everything I said. EU regulators shouldn't be able to entitle themsleves to around 40% of Google's yearly profits. If the laws in the EU intended for this then they are backwards and harmful to innovation. That 5 billion dollars could go into life sciences, self driving cars, and a bunch of other stuff that materially improves society. Instead it's going into EU coffers.

Google's services add massive value to the world while regulators have done nothing. Fines on Google by the EU total over 7 billion dollars over the last couple of years. Ridiculous, and I'm surprised y'all are trying to justify this cash grab.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#82

Post by cageface »

shaqbert wrote: post #72
cageface wrote: post #57

I think this is a mistake and essentially punishing Google for pursuing an open distribution model for Android, without which I doubt it would have emerged as a serious competitor to iOS. We're all a lot better off, even people that use iOS, because there has been real competition in mobile. This is essentially choosing which business models the EU thinks should win.

The punishment is not for pursuing an open source distribution model, but by applying undue power in taking back control of the open distribution model.

Google has to somehow recoup the high development costs of Android. Does the EU expect them to develop it as a charity?

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#83

Post by oliwarner »

rusk wrote: post #71
bwb wrote: post #61

This one frustrated me to read, i think they should have gotten involved sooner and worked with google. Instead they slap a crazy high fee for something that is vague in violation. It does feel a bit like a vendetta here by the EU.

I kind of felt the same about the Apple Tax / Irish Revenue Commissioners thing. On looking into the judgement however it appeared as though both parties actively sought to subvert competition rules under a disingenuous "veil of ignorance" . Warning shots had been fired earlier but the practices continued hence the fine. I haven't read into the details of this judgement yet but you may well find similar reasoning the…

That's not a fine against Apple, it's a demand that Ireland corrects past behaviour that has been deemed state aid.

While it's certainly Apple's prerogative to play EU states off against each other to get the best deal, it should have been blindingly obvious that what it was getting from Ireland would be, and should be reversed.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#84

Post by rusk »

repolfx wrote: post #66
hrktb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better source: > The European Commission has accused Google of abusing its Android market dominance by bundling its search engine and Chrome apps into the operating system. Google has also allegedly blocked phone makers from creating devices that run forked versions of Android. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17580694/google-android-e... > How is it any different Apple doesn’t have a dominent search engine to pu…

That first claim is clearly wrong though. Firstly, Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe and their devices can be bought everywhere. Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google, notably the Amazon phones and tablets. They weren't that popular with consumers but that's not Google's fault: it just means consumers highly value the additional services Google provides.

> That first claim is clearly wrong though.

No it isn't. But your attempt at refutation is.

> Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe

Apple has its segment. Android is pretty much everything else. It is "dominant" in the market.

> Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google

The complaint relates specifically to access to google play services.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#85

Post by touart »

ar0 wrote: post #24
vivan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country, iOS are more than 50% of the market. I haven't been able to find any EU-wide numbers though, which are the important ones in this case.

Well, the European Commission alleges that Android has an 80% market share in Europe: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm (fifth paragraph) But for this case, they are using a definition that makes Android even more dominant: they allege that Google restricts device manufacturers' freedoms. And from a device manufacturer point of view, Android has a 90+% market share of "licensable smart mobile ope…

404 for the links: https://web.archive.org/web/20180707134410/http://europa.eu/...

https://web.archive.org/web/20180717113254/http://europa.eu/...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#86

Post by repolfx »

shaqbert wrote: post #72
cageface wrote: post #57

I think this is a mistake and essentially punishing Google for pursuing an open distribution model for Android, without which I doubt it would have emerged as a serious competitor to iOS. We're all a lot better off, even people that use iOS, because there has been real competition in mobile. This is essentially choosing which business models the EU thinks should win.

The punishment is not for pursuing an open source distribution model, but by applying undue power in taking back control of the open distribution model.

But Apple hasn't been fined in the same way. So apparently if Google had kept Android proprietary, and made their own hardware, they'd be totally OK, even though there'd only be two phone makers left in the world instead of dozens like there is now?

I'm sorry but this move is garbage. I am British and I'm so glad the UK is leaving this horrible, success hating farce of a union. Google paid billions to develop Android and then gave it away for free under the Apache license specifically to encourage competition and diversity in the smartphone market. They then added a carrot of some apps and the app store if OEMs agreed not to introduce backwards incompatibilities, to avoid the J2ME problem of a hopelessly forked and buggy platform.

If they hadn't done these things, very likely Apple would have wiped out every competitor in existence.

The EU is sending a powerful message with this move: keep everything proprietary, pick a high enough price point to price out most poor European countries, and you'll be fine. Build an open ecosystem where competitors target every price point and you'll suddenly find yourself being an involuntary contributing member to the EU's budget. What a great disincentive to build products for the Spanish or German markets.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#87

Post by orcdork »

amelius wrote: post #55

I'm wondering how such a fine actually comes into existence. How does some EU committee get the idea that Google is anti-competitive here? Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Can we somehow post the EU about instances where companies are being anti-competitive, and get them to take action somehow? Given the enormous amount of anti-competitive behavior we see every day in the news, I can't help but feel thi…

You can see the original fact sheet of the investigation here (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-4782_en.htm). The reasoning for the investigation is at the bottom. There were two complaints and an independent investigation by the committee.

The fines "reflect the gravity and duration of the infringement. They are calculated under the framework of a set of Guidelines last revised in 2006." (http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/procedures_101_en....). There's a link to the guidelines on the page.

I also had a look at how to file an anti-trust complaint but to be honest, most info was over my head and more appropriate for a lawyer - this seems to be a good start: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/contacts/electronic_document...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#88

Post by Radle »

cncrnd wrote: post #81

This line in the article got to me, "The fine would top the EU’s €2.4 billion antitrust decision against Google just over a year ago." It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporations. I wonder how much of the large fines is attributed to prosecutors or politicians trying to make a name for themselves. Anyone know how often these record fines hold up on appeal? Edit: W…

"Piggy bank", there is a full process duo law involved. It's not like people come up with "hey we need money, let's fine google".

Why would you claim something like that without providing any evidence that this is actually the case?

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#89

Post by garmaine »

skrause wrote: post #56
jaimex2 wrote: post #43

Can Google just close shop in the EU and ignore the fine? Nothing they provide really mandates they have a physical presence.

> Can Google just close shop in the EU and ignore the fine? Sure, if they don't want to get any revenue from the whole European Union anymore. Fortunately the EU is a big enough market so that Google doesn't have any leverage here.

Other commentators are saying the fine is between 1/3 to a half of google’s profits. I sincerely doubt the EU represents more than that share of google’s revenues. But of course I doubt they would pull out as this is a one time thing.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#90

Post by dao- »

amelius wrote: post #80
dao- wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Probably in part yes, but the European Commission is also pretty proactive. E.g. if I remember correctly, they reached out to Mozilla to get their take on how MS was bundling IE with Windows, after Opera originally complained about it. This came out of it: https://www.google.com/search?q=browser+choice+screen&tbm=is...

> but the European Commission is also pretty proactive. Isn't it a bit late though?

Better late than never, I guess?

The question I meant to answer wasn't about timing but about whether the fine is a result of lobbying.

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