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WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

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Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#81

Post by oddevan »

einarfd wrote: post #60

I wonder what Google thinks about this. If these companies only use standard Android API's, and they get sued over that, that isn't good for Googles platform at all. A reasonable response from Google would be to change their terms for publishing to the Play store, if they don't say it already, that you aren't allowed to sue other app makers, if they only use standard API to interop with your app.

This is key, I think. I recall Apple coming to developers' defense when they were targeted for using standard APIs, and if Google wants Android to be a useful platform it will need to do the same here.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#82

Post by pjmlp »

RandallBrown wrote: post #69
pjmlp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was that? I always remember them being reversed engineered.

I remember a short time after AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ, etc. had fallen out of favor and Google Chat used XMPP and I think even Facebook used it.

I never had any significant use of Google Chat or Hangouts among my circle of acquaintances.

Those that left ICQ and Yahoo moved into MSN messenger, followed by Skype.

And now there is an uniform distribution across Whatsapp, Skype and Viber.

However this is anecdote data.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#83

Post by arkadiytehgraet »

Fnoord wrote: post #78
arkadiytehgraet wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually seen the implementation of the WhatsApp clients on iOS / Android? How can you say that the data is E2EE when there are no sources, no verifiable builds, nothing but just statements that "yes, we do use E2EE"? On the contrary, you have open protocol with verifiable implementation and available sources of the Telegram client for mobile platforms; yet you automatically disregard it just because it is n…

Yes, WhatsApp is proprietary software and you did describe some issues. However, the context of the discussion is finding a WhatsApp alternative and rolling it out ; Telegram is not a viable alternative. The point never was we should stick to WhatsApp . If the standards Telegram opted not to use are broken we can all be easily hacked. So avoiding those standards just for the sake of using your own, is snake oil. Thin…

The only context in the post I replied was about WhatsApp being E2EE, which is factually wrong and incorrect, and we should not propogate this misbelief any further than it already is. I mean, this is literally the quote from the post: >The advantage WhatsApp has over MSN is that the data is E2EE.

Where in my post have I mentioned that Telegram uses their own crypto just for the sake of using their own? I'll save you some time: I did not mention it at all. Why did you then even bother to say anything about "snake oil" and "considered harmful"?

Moreover, if security community (for some reason always represented by 1 person) says that unverifiable, closed-source solution is secure just because they said so, then I'll be better off without trusting them, and the actual common sense tells me to stay away as far as I can from anything they do.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#84

Post by qeternity »

contras1970 wrote: post #64
qeternity wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha of course it does, though perhaps not to you. If there were a superior alternative, people would use it. You're just defining this problem so narrowly has only the app itself or something. It's the network, the integrations, the history, etc.

McDonald's has the best food, right?

Define best. Best tasting, no. Heathliest, no. Some combination of taste, nutrients, affordability and convenience? Yes.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#85

Post by Canada »

arkadiytehgraet wrote: post #75
Fnoord wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To participate in some parts of society WhatsApp is now a de facto requirement. A whole nation blindly agrees to whatever terms of use Facebook drafts. Same if you don't have a Facebook account. Speaking of which, WhatsApp was the defacto IM standard before it was bought by Facebook. Previously it was MSN Messenger (or whatever it is called these days. Skype?) and that was horrible as well. XMMP was at least federa…

Have you actually seen the implementation of the WhatsApp clients on iOS / Android? How can you say that the data is E2EE when there are no sources, no verifiable builds, nothing but just statements that "yes, we do use E2EE"? On the contrary, you have open protocol with verifiable implementation and available sources of the Telegram client for mobile platforms; yet you automatically disregard it just because it is n…

Yes, and Telegram being open allows us to confirm with absolute certainty that it uses no E2EE by default.

We don't have the WhatsApp source code, but we don't have to do a lot of reverse engineering to see that it uses this:

https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal-protocol-c

But yeah, you're right, it could be sending plaintext or deliberately leaking keys somewhere. Unless someone really reverses it we won't know it doesn't as surely as we know that Telegram doesn't use encryption at all.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#86

Post by jsmthrowaway »

paulie_a wrote: post #79
Freak_NL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

If family members don't invite you to events because of the lack of whatsapp, you probably are not very close.

At least buy OP a drink before psychoanalyzing their relationships that aggressively without any evidence to go on beside your cultural assumptions. Mere participation in this community is a beaming, reliable signal that you’re probably not Dr. Phil, so I’d suggest listening rather than explaining familial bond to someone you’ve never met.

If you said something like that to me in person, your evening would not go the way you think it would, and you’d find yourself in a conversation about your departure from the circumstances that allowed you to offer that perceived wisdom.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#87

Post by vinceguidry »

qeternity wrote: post #39
yorwba wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They start out by building a superior product; then that product gets big; then they realize they need to monetize; then the product stops being superior, but it still has everyone's contacts, so most users stay; then the product keeps getting worse until it's unbearable and everyone switches to the most popular superior alternative... WhatsApp is currently in the "no longer superior" phase.

> then the product stops being superior, but it still has everyone's contacts, so most users stay You're just twisting words here. The fact that switching costs are too high means it's superior. You're defining superiority to be some very strict UX that you've decided. > then the product keeps getting worse until it's unbearable and everyone switches to the most popular superior alternative Exactly. Once it stops bei…

I think you're making a good point that doesn't deserve the downvotes. There is no need to see vendor lock-in and efforts by companies to create it as anything more sinister than the free market at work. The network effect is a double edged sword. The world switched from Myspace, and it happened pretty fast. Switching has only become easier and easier since then.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#88

Post by apearson »

test6554 wrote: post #65

What if the problem of auto-messaging is the potential for an infinite loop of message and auto-reply. That could cause a lot of headaches for whatsapp.

I would assume they have rate limiting for all clients if it affects them that much

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#89

Post by allannienhuis »

paulie_a wrote: post #79
Freak_NL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

If family members don't invite you to events because of the lack of whatsapp, you probably are not very close.

Some people rely on their tech to take care of a lot of details, and simply forget the edge cases sometimes. People are human and make mistakes. It's pretty disrespectful to jump to conclusions about their relationships.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#90

Post by craftyguy »

devit wrote: post #21

The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me. The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want. Instead antitrust law needs to be expanded to consider networ…

> The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me.

So, switch to something else and convince a few other folks to do the same (e.g. "I am not available on , use if you want to talk to me"). Y'all were not always on whatsapp to begin with, so there's no reason y'all cannot leave.

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