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Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

nytimes.com

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Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#81

Post by gowld »

briandear wrote: post #50
nerdponx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that this thread and the "chatbots aren't so great after all" thread hit the front page on the same day. Anyone who actually thought people gave a shit about chatbots was either deluded, a chatbot API salesman, or a manager/owner trying to cut costs by downsizing their call/chat support center. Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill…

It helps the business owner and the consumer. Let’s not forget the consumer here. It also helps those willing to engage in gig activities. If Uber wasn’t marginally beneficial to drivers, why do they do it? Acting like Uber drivers are all idiots and need “protecting” is idiotic. If the economics don’t work, they quit.

You can't just quit a car loan. Switching costs. "Marginal benefit" isn't a win overall if it's combined with excessive fixed costs over overhead. This is basic Econ 101/102 stuff. If you fall in a hole, you get marginal benefits from trying to climb out. That doesn't make the hole good for you.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#82

Post by afarrell »

mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

> really hard to do because of catch 22

To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this:

- Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal.

- Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion of the rent with Transferwise or something, and have your flatmate put you on the water bill. I sure hope this is legal.

- Find a bank which is a bit lax about proof of address and is willing to accept things like proof of employment. Lloyds used to do this, but I've heard they no longer do.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#83

Post by jlarocco »

nerdponx wrote: post #14
lalos wrote: post #5

It did reshape it. Turns out you can offload your costs to your 'employees' that hardly will organize and project costs and earnings to the future (like a competent business). I've talked with bunch of car sharing drivers who were bamboozled with car loans, get hit by traffic infractions, costs of maintenance and the list goes on and on. I feel that the gig economy preys on people who have not developed that risk man…

Interesting that this thread and the "chatbots aren't so great after all" thread hit the front page on the same day. Anyone who actually thought people gave a shit about chatbots was either deluded, a chatbot API salesman, or a manager/owner trying to cut costs by downsizing their call/chat support center. Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill…

> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill.

It's more accurate to say business owners and consumers are benefiting at the expense of the employees.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#84

Post by gowld »

zabzonk wrote: post #76
mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

You worked as a sommelier (that's the term, not "wine waiter") at high-cost restaurants without being able to speak rudimentary English? Bollocks.

Perhaps someone who has actually lived in England knows more about the restaurant business and language there than you do?

HN has global community; please check your linguistic provincialism at the comment box.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wine%20waiter

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wine_waiter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jul/25/whatar...

Related: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rudimentary

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#85

Post by draw_down »

xapata wrote: post #41
lalos wrote: post #5

It did reshape it. Turns out you can offload your costs to your 'employees' that hardly will organize and project costs and earnings to the future (like a competent business). I've talked with bunch of car sharing drivers who were bamboozled with car loans, get hit by traffic infractions, costs of maintenance and the list goes on and on. I feel that the gig economy preys on people who have not developed that risk man…

I used to drive pizza delivery. That promise of quick cash for driving has been around for a long time.

But pizza companies don’t care what kind of beater you drive the pizza in, as long as you tell them you have insurance.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#86

Post by gleenn »

conanbatt wrote: post #80
nerdponx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that this thread and the "chatbots aren't so great after all" thread hit the front page on the same day. Anyone who actually thought people gave a shit about chatbots was either deluded, a chatbot API salesman, or a manager/owner trying to cut costs by downsizing their call/chat support center. Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill…

> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners Consumers were losers?

Good riddance to the poorly upkept taxis with the aggressive drivers, and expensive rides.

I feel like the drivers are not paid adequately though, esp. given the hidden expenses. I talk with them regularly and think many don't realize those costs.

I always tip as a result, and I think Uber/Lyft give me better drivers as a result, though I can't be sure.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#87

Post by mrtksn »

zabzonk wrote: post #76
mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

You worked as a sommelier (that's the term, not "wine waiter") at high-cost restaurants without being able to speak rudimentary English? Bollocks.

Not as a sommelier but a wine waiter and no, my English was not rudimentary but I did not have much practice at speaking so I had very hard time on the phone(I guess I was used to do lips reading?).

There are also roles that require almost no interaction with the guest and these roles were filled with immigrants that barely speak any English. Roles like bringing the plates or collect the empty glasses and dishes.

Also, it's not like they had much choice, In these 4 months I haven't met a single British person as a colleague but Spanish, Italians, French, Bulgarians, Romanians, Iranians, Brazilians, South Africans, Kiwis and of course a lot of Australians.

The pay was just above the minimum wedge. Later I actually built an app to help these agencies organize their workforce but it turned out that they were happy with Excel, e-mails and Whatsapp.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#88

Post by unleashit »

gorpomon wrote: post #70

It's easy to get cynical about the gig economy. But I try and remember that the original spirit of it has been largely successful. The promise of the app economy was that you could take an idea like "I wish I could drive people around for extra money" and make it real, and now it's only real, but for people like my driving-averse mom it's revolutionary. But distortions to the dream have come from all sides. Customers…

"The spirit is that these gigs augment income, not become a sole source of it."

Says who? If the jobs are moving to the gig economy, then what income is a person supposed to augment? I find this argument both false and harmful to understanding the situation at hand.

I agree that there are certain workers who benefit from the gig economy (those living in mom's basement, have a working partner, etc.). What I disagree about (and thus possess cynicism) is that the "majority" will benefit from the transition of many positions from traditional employment to contracting.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#89

Post by ProblemFactory »

gorpomon wrote: post #70

It's easy to get cynical about the gig economy. But I try and remember that the original spirit of it has been largely successful. The promise of the app economy was that you could take an idea like "I wish I could drive people around for extra money" and make it real, and now it's only real, but for people like my driving-averse mom it's revolutionary. But distortions to the dream have come from all sides. Customers…

I think one of the main issues is that the current employment classification is too binary. There are independent contractors, who are really independent small businesses: set their own rates, do their own advertising, choose their own customers, and keep all of the profit. And employees, who work for their employer for set hours, and get a stable salary and benefits in return.

We need a new third category: dependent contractor. Once that exists, we can start a more meaningful debate on what freedoms vs stability guarantees are best for it, without trying to force people into one extreme or the other.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#90

Post by s17n »

zabzonk wrote: post #76
mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

You worked as a sommelier (that's the term, not "wine waiter") at high-cost restaurants without being able to speak rudimentary English? Bollocks.

Sounds like they were working in catering for events, which has traditionally been a job you can show up and get with no skill (unlike sommelier which is highly skilled).
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