China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other • Hacker News Board

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#81

Post by Laforet » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost.

What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive them.

[0]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_intensity_conflict

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#82

Post by imbokodo » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

The Marxist/Maoist idea of the Chinese would be that the government is just part of the superstructure on top of the base. The base being the current state of the forces of production in their continual self-evolution and reinvention, and the relations of production flowing from that.

In other words, the economic system determines the political system. When hunter-gatherers became farmers, the political system changed. When farming as the center made way for manufacturing and industry, the political system changed (as did culture).

I don't see this as much different than Americans driving Lakota onto the Standing Rock Indian Reservation. Just two years ago the US federal government arrested and injured many on that reservation. Or Americans driving Vietnamese onto strategic hamlets. Or locking Japanese up in the 1940s. I don't see what innovation the Chinese have made.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#83

Post by nicodjimenez » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

You've hit the nail on the head. But I think there are two separate issues at play here. The first issue is the re-writing of the social contract that can only be done by implementing mass surveillance. This approach is arguably justifiable and gives the government more control to optimize how things work. The second issue is having one party government where there is not opposition. To me this approach is definitely dangerous long term. Complete tyranny is fantastic when you have a great dictator, however there's just no evidence that this model is sustainable. If China gets too crazy, the best and brightest will want to leave the country. It's definitely a crazy and bold experiment and it's definitely working in the short term.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#84

Post by hapnin » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

Objectively, Western corporate-military ideology has been far deadlier in Asia and Africa than religious fundamentalism. The US has attacked far more countries and killed more civilians than religious extremists have.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#85

Post by TangoTrotFox » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

scandox wrote: post #11

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

Global peace is and always has been threatened by only one thing: inequality and greed. Religious fundamentalism may often be used as the ideological substrate for violence, but I think we've seen enough the last hundred years to know that any old ideology will do, without any spiritual element.

Pakistan, Armenia, Egypt and many others are some of the most 'equal' nations in the world. I think people use income equality as a sort of euphemism for Scandinavia, and by most metrics yeah they're doing incredible there. But many of the characteristics they have, which includes relatively low income inequality when discussing matters with somebody with a left bias - and cultural/ethnic homogeneity when discussing matters with somebody with a right bias, are also shared by many other nations that are in awful shape.

I will fully agree with you on greed, however. And I'd even go as far as to agree with you on religion being a tool rather than the real factor. But there's also another thing you're missing on the religious issue. The terrorists in Xinjiang killed hundreds of completely random people - and often in close contact with weapons such as knives. Well random in at least they tried to target non-Muslims. That's something I think the vast majority of people simply could not bring themselves to do. That just takes a whole lot of hate, or at best complete sociopathic disregard, for somebody you know absolutely nothing about. And religion, fundamentalistic religion in particular, is something that helps breed that hate. And it also lets people believe that after they go kill those random people, somehow they're going to end up in a magical place where until the end of time they get to go screw 72 perpetual virgins while being served by 80,000 servants. Haha. Maybe we've come full circle and the religion itself ties right back into greed!

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#86

Post by robotkdick » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

Laforet wrote: post #81

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

I totally agree.

China seems to want to create a monoculture with norms that don't bend from locale to locale. I think the saying is: if it don't bend, it will break.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#87

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #47

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #4

I keep telling people about this and their unconcerned reactions really worry me.

People are only getting concerned by the "hype thing of the day". (today it is the 1500 immigrant children lost, yesterday it was some battle in Syria) They don't care about things until a mob of similar people care about it. It is group thinking and virtue signaling at its peak

Like the frog in gradually heated water, no one notices the gradual intensification.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#88

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

titanix2 wrote: post #70

nkoren wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. You want proof that doesn't appeal to the Quran? Fine. In long-Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt, there are a large number of pre-existing minority religions: Yazidis, Mandeans, Samaritans, and a number of others -- as well as long-established Jewish and Christian communities. Those communities have been surrounded by Islam for more than a thousand years, and while they've undoubtedly got…

It is funny you take the example of Christians community in the Middle East, because right now they are precisely the target of Sunnis terrorists and in great danger. A few month ago, a Libanese bishop was saying in a newspaper that "Christians will inevitably disappear from the Middle-East, even from Lebanon". He predicted that to happen in the timeframe of a decade. [1] https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1110721…

No, it's not funny. A century or two of attacks on the region from Christians has soured relationships in the area, but those Lebanese Christians lived in Muslim controlled areas for over a millennium. By comparison, Muslims in Spain were immediately forced to convert or leave, and in 200 years any ember of the religion was dead.

The current situation stems from much more than just religious choice.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#89

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

igivanov wrote: post #56

surfanddurf wrote: post #31

I think we, as the world, need to counter this by 1.) Start moving factories out China, back into your local country. It could be an upgrade for companies to upgrade to more automated factories. Furthermore, it fights against China's agenda of 'Made in China in 2025', which they expect to make....everything in China. 2.) Shame companies that are investing further in China, destroying jobs in your local country. 3.) S…

In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#90

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

Roritharr wrote: post #6

Besides this being dystopian out of the western libertarian pov, i wonder what it actually does against crime? I imagine a crime free city would be an interesting human phenomenon without equal. The side effects of there not being any undetected and unprosecuted crime would be fascinating.

[deleted]