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Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#81

Post by amatecha »

readams wrote: post #80
amatecha wrote: post #79

"Russia banned Telegram on its territory in April because we refused to provide decryption keys for all our users’ communications to Russia’s security agencies" Why does Telegram have decryption keys for all their users' communications (or do they)?

For private chats Telegram uses end-to-end encryption and they cannot read the chats. Of course, they control the clients though, so they could update their clients to also send the chats to Russian intelligence and it would be hard for anyone to notice.

Yeah, I thought it's supposed to be e2e-encrypted, so I was confused by this statement. I guess it make sense if he means they refused to add a backdoor like you say.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#82

Post by [deleted] »

wafflebear wrote: post #76
anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Not applicable to Telegram, but if the app is open source and you have a Mac (!) you can install it using Xcode. Since Signal is actually open source, you can install it even if Apple decides to block it in the future (if you have a Mac).

[deleted]

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#83

Post by zapita »

Presumably Telegram doesn't know for sure why Apple is blocking updates... They are most likely getting stonewalled, with Apple not responding to any of their requests for information.

Telegram suspects that Apple is trying to appease Russian censors while keeping a low profile and plausible deniability. Perhaps Apple is buying time and showing goodwill to Russia while they negotiate a deal - who knows?

Acting on their suspicion, Telegram makes this announcement, putting pressure on Apple to unblock updates, or at least to stop stonewalling them.

It's a clever use of PR as a tactical weapon. And assuming that Apple was indeed stonewalling Telegram (extremely likely knowing Apple), I think it's perfectly justified.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#84

Post by amatecha »

masonlee wrote: post #78

Does this dispute imply that Apple backdoors its own iMessage end-to-end encryption on states' request?

It's entirely possible, I'd speculate. I once called Apple tech support for help with my iPhone. So they could see what was going on right on my phone, they were able to remotely request a "screen sharing" session, which I had to click "Allow" on a dialog on my phone to approve. One can imagine that such an approval dialog is not actually required in a technical sense, and _theoretically_ a screen share could be remotely started without any such dialog/notification.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#85

Post by wavefunction »

eganist wrote: post #23

I'd given this challenge some thought in the recent past, specifically the challenge that the big app store owners are each generally susceptible to coercion by large nation-state actors in spite of being multinationally distributed. There was a project I was involved in rather heavily (cyph // resulted in a pair of neat conference talks) where we'd accounted for the risks of apps being banned by making the entire ap…

I'd be interested to see any slides or "work product" containing your conclusions if it's available and you don't mind.

I'm working for a startup that has had to pivot to web-only applications specifically because of Apple and their frustrating nervousness around anything involving applied blockchains.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#86

Post by verroq »

readams wrote: post #80
amatecha wrote: post #79

"Russia banned Telegram on its territory in April because we refused to provide decryption keys for all our users’ communications to Russia’s security agencies" Why does Telegram have decryption keys for all their users' communications (or do they)?

For private chats Telegram uses end-to-end encryption and they cannot read the chats. Of course, they control the clients though, so they could update their clients to also send the chats to Russian intelligence and it would be hard for anyone to notice.

Telegram isn't E2E encrypted by default.

You need to choose an "encrypted" chat.

They have been criticised over this for many years now.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#87

Post by zapt02 »

duskwuff wrote: post #32
Shank wrote: post #13

Honestly, I don't understand why there are still details missing from this story. Durov is willing to share that Telegram hasn't been able to ship updates, but not the full reason. Have they been actively rejected (and thus, provided a rejection reason)? Or have Apple just stopped approving their updates silently? If it's the former, I don't know what app store guideline says "well, Telegram is banned in Russia, and…

I've certainly never heard of Apple rejecting an app update without giving a reason. I'd agree that it feels like there's something that Durov isn't telling us here.

Apple often cites entire paragraphs from their TOS as reason for app rejection without giving specific reasons.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#88

Post by robotkdick »

amatecha wrote: post #84
masonlee wrote: post #78

Does this dispute imply that Apple backdoors its own iMessage end-to-end encryption on states' request?

It's entirely possible, I'd speculate. I once called Apple tech support for help with my iPhone. So they could see what was going on right on my phone, they were able to remotely request a "screen sharing" session, which I had to click "Allow" on a dialog on my phone to approve. One can imagine that such an approval dialog is not actually required in a technical sense, and _theoretically_ a screen share could be remo…

While true they can access a phone based on the user opting in, there's likely a high degree of "security" around how and when this can occur including the necessity of a user opting in.

Tim Cook has taken a very public stance on privacy and the addition of police-unfriendly encryption of data. So, there's much to lose if news were to come out undermining that position.

He probably would not be going so far out on a limb personally if the reality of the privacy/security/encryption were just for PR. His integrity is dependent on that position being true.

Slowing things down for political purposes in entirely another matter, and well within the realm of probability.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#89

Post by thotaway »

Theory 1: It’s because Russia, a market with a very small iOS user base, can pressure Apple into doing what it wants.

Theory 2: It’s because Telegram raised more than a billion dollars for a virtual currency that does an end-run around Apple’s in-app payments.

Based on Apple’s past actions, which one is more likely?

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