Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#81

Post by thirduncle » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #40

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

>and sell them to any country in the world This is never true. No government will allow its companies (and in this context that's how it's seen) to sell weapons to countries they don't approve of. That said, apparently the defense industry is often irresponsible at best.

No government will allow its companies (and in this context that's how it's seen) to sell weapons to countries they don't approve of.

What the poster meant was "just about any country" in the world. Which we've seen happen time and time again - the restrictions may be nominally in place (for a while), but eventually they get selectively lifted, and/or the companies find a way to circumvent them.

At times (and not at all surprisingly) with the assistance of certain government agencies chartered with the purpose of not only enacting precisely this kind of subterfuge - but perfecting it as an art.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#82

Post by relics443 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #60

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

That's the thing isn't it ? They can't do anything alone. It always amazes me that those big entities exist, because they require such a huge highly educated and skilled human power. What are all those genius at the NSA thinking ? I can't imagine somebody smart enough to work here is not smart enough to understand the consequences of working there. So why are they not quitting ? Social pressure and money are part of…

Have you considered that there are people out there with values that differ from yours? It's not wildly impossible, regardless of what the screaming minority would have you believe.

Maybe they don't have a problem with working on such projects, because they agree with their end goal?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#83

Post by whb07 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #67

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

> Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. "Full of"? The world is more peaceful than it's ever been. Extremists do hurt innocent people, and we should not ignore them. But with each choice that we need to make, we should carefully consider pros and cons. Is there really a net benefit here?

Do you read of the sectarian violence that happens in Iraq because Saddam fell? How about increase violence in Mexico after cartel leaders are sent to prison/killed?

I agree with you the world is much safer and there is less deaths from military conflict post WWII. I think that is largely due to the massive military power in a largely benevolent country like the U.S. I think if you magically removed the U.S entirely from the picture other nations would be thrown into conflict to be "top dog".

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#84

Post by dfsegoat » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

Somebody else will fill the gap. It is simply a consequence of military science: If a human in the loop makes combat systems less effective, then other countries will seek the advantage over others by removing the human from the loop. It's a classic arms race at this point.

... This is a pandoras box that has already been opened I am afraid.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#85

Post by martin_bech » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

thats terrible reasoning, most likely formed by the skewed view that targeted assasinations are needed and cool. Why does the US need to be at war all the fucking time.. there are so many problems with drones doing targetted killings, and so many many more, if they should be powered by AI that get cucumber right 98% of the time. This is such a horrible, horrible, horrible idea.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#86

Post by jcbrand » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #40

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

>and sell them to any country in the world This is never true. No government will allow its companies (and in this context that's how it's seen) to sell weapons to countries they don't approve of. That said, apparently the defense industry is often irresponsible at best.

Doesn't really matter that much, AFAIK all (most?) western countries sell to Saudi Arabia for instance.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#87

Post by BookmarkSaver » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #42

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can beat you to death with a hammer or stab you to death with a knife. Should we not build hammers and knives? Should hammers and knives be subject to KYC laws? Sure you can argue that it's different because those are things the common man can get whereas on the state can afford surveillance dragnets and drones but it wasn't that long ago that only the state could afford computers. Edit: Apparently I struck a nerve…

The difference is between creating a hammer, and creating a hammer specifically for the purpose of efficiently killing humans.

You mean, like a gun?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#88

Post by BookmarkSaver » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

anthony_romeo wrote: post #46

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can beat you to death with a hammer or stab you to death with a knife. Should we not build hammers and knives? Should hammers and knives be subject to KYC laws? Sure you can argue that it's different because those are things the common man can get whereas on the state can afford surveillance dragnets and drones but it wasn't that long ago that only the state could afford computers. Edit: Apparently I struck a nerve…

If you were to try and kill me with a knife, your life is on the line as well. If you try to kill me with a drone, your risk is only the money and time spent on the drone. There is quite a difference.

I'm unclear as to what the moral difference is. It's more moral to kill someone if they can fight back? Then why are we giving our soldiers tanks? Guns? Fighter jets? Knives?

Why not just send them in with their fists.

This line of reasoning has no rational basis.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#89

Post by walshemj » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #25

flyinglizard wrote: post #8

I wouldn’t say that developing military hardware necessarily negates the “don’t be evil” principal (especially if the developed articles are dual use, for both military and civilian applications). The western world, our principals and values have prospered for more than half a century in Pax Americana afforded, in a large part, by the prosperous US Military Industrial Complex. I totally get the objection to developin…

Given that the US military has killed nearly 4,000 people with drone strikes in Pakistan over the past decade, a country in which no formal military conflict exists, nor any formal enemy, just vague accusations of terrorist networks (and likely a bunch of political dissidents fed to them by the Pakistani government), I am really wondering where the "Pax" is coming from. Because if you do the math the odds of any give…

As the number of police shootings (with a high number of collateral ones) is about 1k per year over the last decade American police have killed 10,000 and America doesn't have large tribal area's and the related problems like Pakistan.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#90

Post by whb07 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

pera wrote: post #79

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

> I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. I am not sure why some people instantly assumes that the whole purpose of making drones more autonomous is to make them more precise: historically, the DoD/US military have made virtually zero efforts to even try to reduce civilian "casualties". Maybe I am too cynical, but…

This is outright false. I'd love to see what history you are getting your facts from. I can personally tell you I've seen the briefs and classes the military personnel are put through, and they are clearly told to minimize civilian casualties even to the harm of U.S personnel.

They are also told by a lawyer during those briefs essentially "if you break any of the Geneva conventions or outright any of the things we just told you we will swiftly punish you".