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Notes on Nationalism (1945)

orwell.ru

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Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#81

Post by boomboomsubban »

mistermann wrote: post #77
dalbasal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics. Celtic nationalsim -> pick any flavour of modern irish politics. Neo-Tories.. same. Most people self labeling as any of these would unanimously (if not alway honestly) all self describe the belief as patriotic by exactly the definition that Orwell gave. The other isms on his list aren't about nations. I guess Trotskyists wouldn't ne…

> Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics Just so I'm not misunderstanding you....so, any thing (I'm looking for examples of specific beliefs or policy goals that are motivated by Nationalism but passed off as patriotism) any politician in Israel believes is Nationalist, but presented(?) as patriotic? What does this look like in action? Or have I misunderstood?

Their quote was rather hyperbolic, but much of Israel's foreign affairs policy is aggressively nationalistic. I could give examples of their nationalism in action, but as an outsider I'd rather not assume I know what they consider patriotic. I'll pick an example from the USA instead.

The US phenomenon around "support our troops" is presented as a patriotic appreciation for true Americans making hard sacrifices. The best way to support our troops would be keeping them home, which would also be the best thing to do by Orwell's definition of patriotism. The slogan has been used as a way to demonize those opposed to US foreign policy, and as a form of propaganda to show young people how much their community will love them if they enlist, nationalist ambitions.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#82

Post by dragonsh »

eklavya wrote: post #2

Boy oh boy if only I could make more people read this. So many people in India just conflate patriotism with nationalism and it has become a fashion to brand any patriotic talk as "nationalistic". And they assume they are right because they think great people of past agree.

Nationalism breeds patriotism which breeds selfishness. I still prefer Rabindranath Tagore’s human to human connection over nationalism.

Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live - Rabindranath Tagore

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high. Where knowledge is free. Where the world has not been broken up into fragments. By narrow domestic walls. Where words come out from the depth of truth. Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection. Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way. Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit. Where the mind is led forward by thee. Into ever-widening thought and action. Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#83

Post by boomboomsubban »

humanrebar wrote: post #43
andrepd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you love your country, your homeland, your family, your culture? Then that's very okay. Do you think that your country, your homeland, your family, or your culture are objectively superior to others? Then you're a fanatic/xenophobe.

> Do you think that... your culture are objectively superior to others? Fair enough, but what do we do about the culture of "citizens of the world"? Aren't we trying to create or grow a better culture when we reject nationalism? Is that fanaticism? Why not?

Culture constantly changes, it's unavoidable even when you love your current culture. If you aren't viewing it as the objectively superior culture it isn't fanaticism.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#84

Post by mantas »

forapurpose wrote: post #72
mantas wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's all academic. Current nationalists base their 'nation' on skin color and religion: white and Christian (though the religious aspect is sometimes less emphasized), like ISIS'/Daesh's nationalism based on Islam. You can read people advocating it in HN, just like you can read many attempts to whitewash it. That's somewhat true only in a very narrow world of USA and ISIS. In most of the world, nationalism is bas…

[flagged]

Sure, let's discuss specific political movements. For example spring of nations in mid-19th century Europe or fall-of-iron-curtain movements of late 1980s/early 1990s in, again, Europe.

In both cases they effectively ended oppression and brutality. In most cases, it was direct result of ethnic hatred towards those people who called themselves nationalists.

Humans naturally gravitate towards tribalism. We're simply not capable to feel connected to every human on planet earth. Nationalism is probably one of the better and more sustainable forms of tribalism. Definitely better than highly polarised or multi-cultural (which is totally different from multi-ethnic or multi-racial) societies.

Most of what you listed if chauvinism, not nationalism. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong if society wants to stay (not become) homogenous. It's easier to come to social contract that way. Which is the most important for healthy society.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#85

Post by mistermann »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #81
mistermann wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics Just so I'm not misunderstanding you....so, any thing (I'm looking for examples of specific beliefs or policy goals that are motivated by Nationalism but passed off as patriotism) any politician in Israel believes is Nationalist, but presented(?) as patriotic? What does this look like in action? Or have I misunderstood?

Their quote was rather hyperbolic, but much of Israel's foreign affairs policy is aggressively nationalistic. I could give examples of their nationalism in action, but as an outsider I'd rather not assume I know what they consider patriotic. I'll pick an example from the USA instead. The US phenomenon around "support our troops" is presented as a patriotic appreciation for true Americans making hard sacrifices. The b…

Israel is well beyond Nationalist if you ask me. But I'm trying to get some detail on this seemingly well known phenomenon of Nationalist actions being presented as patriotic. Maybe I'm wrong but it's starting to seem like some of these assertions are opinions based on some sort of social signalling rather than facts.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#86

Post by boomboomsubban »

mistermann wrote: post #85
boomboomsubban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their quote was rather hyperbolic, but much of Israel's foreign affairs policy is aggressively nationalistic. I could give examples of their nationalism in action, but as an outsider I'd rather not assume I know what they consider patriotic. I'll pick an example from the USA instead. The US phenomenon around "support our troops" is presented as a patriotic appreciation for true Americans making hard sacrifices. The b…

Israel is well beyond Nationalist if you ask me. But I'm trying to get some detail on this seemingly well known phenomenon of Nationalist actions being presented as patriotic. Maybe I'm wrong but it's starting to seem like some of these assertions are opinions based on some sort of social signalling rather than facts.

Orwell's definition of patriotism is fairly specific, and he mentions how hard it is to understand what anyone means when they say "patriotism" or "nationalism." Because of that, most things called patriotism barely try to fit Orwell's definition, but I can try again...

The Bush rhetoric about the necessity of the war on terror was presented in a very patriotic light by Orwell's definition. They brought up a seemingly constant risk to all American homes, and the often repeated line about the "terrorists hate our freedom" seemed to threaten and belittle the cultural values core to American patriotism. An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions.

If that doesn't work for you, I don't know what will. I'd guess you're using different definitions of the terms, as even my most cynical views on Israel would be nationalist.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#87

Post by forapurpose »

mantas wrote: post #84
forapurpose wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sure, let's discuss specific political movements. For example spring of nations in mid-19th century Europe or fall-of-iron-curtain movements of late 1980s/early 1990s in, again, Europe. In both cases they effectively ended oppression and brutality. In most cases, it was direct result of ethnic hatred towards those people who called themselves nationalists. Humans naturally gravitate towards tribalism. We're simply no…

> Humans naturally gravitate towards tribalism. We're simply not capable to feel connected to every human on planet earth.

Human have lots of bad instincts - violence, war, hatred, greed, etc etc - but history shows beyond a doubt that we overcome them and it works astoundingly well. But we've overcome those things and built democracies, liberty, a world where violence and war is at historic laws, lifespans are probably double what they were for most of history, women are in the workforce, we walk on the moon, human rights and prosperity have expanded by orders of magnitude. All of that came from the embrace of universal rights and liberty.

> We're simply not capable ...

In fact, we certainly are!

The question is, why would anyone want to take away all that success and ruin it?

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#88

Post by mistermann »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #86
mistermann wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is well beyond Nationalist if you ask me. But I'm trying to get some detail on this seemingly well known phenomenon of Nationalist actions being presented as patriotic. Maybe I'm wrong but it's starting to seem like some of these assertions are opinions based on some sort of social signalling rather than facts.

Orwell's definition of patriotism is fairly specific, and he mentions how hard it is to understand what anyone means when they say "patriotism" or "nationalism." Because of that, most things called patriotism barely try to fit Orwell's definition, but I can try again... The Bush rhetoric about the necessity of the war on terror was presented in a very patriotic light by Orwell's definition. They brought up a seemingl…

> An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions.

Attacking foreign countries who are not a threat is Nationalism? Is there any even remotely authoritative source that would agree with this?

Maybe I haven't been clear, but this magical redefining of words is part of the issue I'm having. If I was to say Liberalism (just for example) was synonymous with , people would give me a "HN timeout" within 5 minutes, but it seems like you can throw whatever you want under the Nationalism banter and it's all good. Does anyone have any integrity anymore, or is it fake news all the way down?

> I'd guess you're using different definitions of the terms

It seems I am, the ones found in the dictionary for decades. But this seems to conflict with some other definition that everyone else seems to know, but won't say out loud. It's a rather interesting phenomenon to observe from someone on the outside.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#89

Post by boomboomsubban »

mistermann wrote: post #88
boomboomsubban wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orwell's definition of patriotism is fairly specific, and he mentions how hard it is to understand what anyone means when they say "patriotism" or "nationalism." Because of that, most things called patriotism barely try to fit Orwell's definition, but I can try again... The Bush rhetoric about the necessity of the war on terror was presented in a very patriotic light by Orwell's definition. They brought up a seemingl…

> An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions. Attacking foreign countries who are not a threat is Nationalism? Is there any even remotely authoritative source that would agree with this? Maybe I haven't been clear, but this magical redefining of words is part of the issue I'm having. If I was to say Liberalism (just for example) was synonymous with , people would give me a "HN timeout" within 5 mi…

This discussion is in a topic about Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism." The first several paragraphs are spent defining what he is calling "nationalism." I had figured you had read it, or one of the various comments summing it up, or even questioned why I repeatedly mention "Orwell's definition of patriotism."

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#90

Post by mistermann »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #89
mistermann wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions. Attacking foreign countries who are not a threat is Nationalism? Is there any even remotely authoritative source that would agree with this? Maybe I haven't been clear, but this magical redefining of words is part of the issue I'm having. If I was to say Liberalism (just for example) was synonymous with , people would give me a "HN timeout" within 5 mi…

This discussion is in a topic about Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism." The first several paragraphs are spent defining what he is calling "nationalism." I had figured you had read it, or one of the various comments summing it up, or even questioned why I repeatedly mention "Orwell's definition of patriotism."

Aaaaah.....well then, that would very well explain my confusion, pardon me for the confusion.
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