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Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

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Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#81

Post by 411mrc »

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #14

The problem that proof-of-work blockchain solves is widely misunderstood. It uses proof-of-work to establish consensus over points in time which are universally unique. Prior to the publication of Satoshi's paper we did not have a solution to this problem and for that reason it is a significant advance in technology. I wouldn't call it crappy, it's actually quite brilliant. For a detailed description see this: https:…

I think the designer's own words are a better summary of the problem solved:

http://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/11/

The magical thing is that you can actually know that the distributed system is consistent by how much work was performed.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#82

Post by jcranmer »

kaolti wrote: post #6

One thing is sure, if you're hanging on to the past you'll always lose in the end. That's not to say blockchain is the be all and end all, but constantly hunting for arguments why something will never work , is not only terribly boring, but IMO the most counterproductive way to look at anything.

Even if that statement is true, that does not imply that the inverse is true--just because you're not hanging onto the past doesn't mean you won't always lose in the end.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#84

Post by DINKDINK »

jeremyjh wrote: post #50
bllguo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's literally a link in the comment. Show some effort please..

Imagine a few different personas, such as investment banker, retail store owner, and soccer mom. Then complete the following sentence: I need a decentralized time ordered log so that I can ...

Imagine a few different personas, such as investment banker, retail store owner, and soccer mom. Then complete the following sentence: I need a decentralized method of sending bits to other academic computers across the country so that I can ...

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#85

Post by zodiac »

localhost3000 wrote: post #34

"Instead of relying on trust or regulation, in the blockchain world, individuals are on-purpose responsible for their own security precautions. And if the software they use is malicious or buggy, they should have read the software more carefully." This is also one of the aspects of "the blockchain" that I struggle with. I don't think normal people want this or should be expected to do this effectively. And once you o…

> And once you outsource the security you're no longer in a "trustless" state. The "trustless" pipe-dream (in the consumer use case) all sort of unravels from there for me.

I think the conclusion doesn't follow. An analogous solution is that traditional public-key cryptography (e.g. as implemented in TLS) is supposed to be trustless, but I haven't personally audited or even read any of the relevant code (e.g. TLS), so I'm "not in a trustless state". It doesn't follow that TLS is useless for me.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#86

Post by miles »

jeremyjh wrote: post #50
bllguo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's literally a link in the comment. Show some effort please..

Imagine a few different personas, such as investment banker, retail store owner, and soccer mom. Then complete the following sentence: I need a decentralized time ordered log so that I can ...

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/revolutions/miscellany/paul...

> A winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics, Paul Krugman wrote in 1998, “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#87

Post by fhood »

phasnox wrote: post #59

Gotta love how he begins saying he was bashing the tech in December(when the market was on the rise) just so that no one can tell him "everyone bashes bitcoin when it's going down". Venmo is centralized. I cannot use it as I live in a third world county with no access to it. Paypal sucks. It takes 5% from the seller and it has power over your money, they can(AND HAVE IN THE PAST) seize it whenever they want. I had my…

You know, paypal may well suck. I have never used it as a developer or a seller, but I really, really, like to have it as an option when I am purchasing something from some rinky dink website that doesn't look like it has been updated int 10 years.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#88

Post by AlexCoventry »

> I would assert that there is no single person in existence who had a problem they wanted to solve, discovered that an available blockchain solution was the best way to solve it, and therefore became a blockchain enthusiast.

He hasn't been paying attention to the space long enough: Many traders in contraband meet that description, and used to talk about it at length in r/darknetmarkets, before it was banned. (BTW, does anyone know where they hang out, now?)

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#89

Post by landryraccoon »

cowpig wrote: post #68

> Venmo is a free service to transfer dollars, and bitcoin transfers are not free Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding. > Blockchain-based trustworthiness falls apart in practice... The particular brand of trustworthiness the author is arguing against is indeed a myth, but that doesn't mean blockchain is "crappy technology" or "a bad vision for the future" Blockchain adds a new thing to the world: digi…

> Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding.

What's that now?

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#90

Post by gtrubetskoy »

simias wrote: post #76
gtrubetskoy wrote: post #14

The problem that proof-of-work blockchain solves is widely misunderstood. It uses proof-of-work to establish consensus over points in time which are universally unique. Prior to the publication of Satoshi's paper we did not have a solution to this problem and for that reason it is a significant advance in technology. I wouldn't call it crappy, it's actually quite brilliant. For a detailed description see this: https:…

> I wouldn't call it crappy, it's actually quite brilliant. I agree with you, I always thought that the Bitcoin algorithm was very clever and "mind opening" in a way. It's one of these things I'd never have thought about but almost seems obvious in hindsight. What's even more interesting is that basically all of it is pre-existing technology: HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way t…

> HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way to create something that's more than the sum of their parts.

No, not really. The way proof-of-work is used is nothing like in HashCash (more generally known as a time lock puzzle), the solution to a decentralized clock is the one piece that is new. In the paper it is referred to as "Timestamp Server". Everything else is previously known tech, but the clock piece is an invention, the invention that made it all possible.

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