As I recently inherited a huge, well-tagged music collection (tens of terabytes of files) I am very interested in this. Is there something like it, also supporting .cue files and also storing the original filenames and structure? A mediaplayer agnostic way to access this treasure trove would be the best.
Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
81–90 of 169 posts
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#82>But fundamentally, there is a mismatch between the narrowness of hierarchies and the rich structure of human knowledge, and the proposed system will not presuppose the features of HFSes. This hits the nail on the head ! All the fileSystems I had to work with are fine as engineering tools. By that I mean using them as an engineer works just fine, their own implementation is off topic. As a user though. What the hell…
Why can't you do the tagging with series of symlinks in one directory instead? It is essentially an index.
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#83>But fundamentally, there is a mismatch between the narrowness of hierarchies and the rich structure of human knowledge, and the proposed system will not presuppose the features of HFSes. This hits the nail on the head ! All the fileSystems I had to work with are fine as engineering tools. By that I mean using them as an engineer works just fine, their own implementation is off topic. As a user though. What the hell…
On OSX these issues have been solved for quite a few years. 1. Press Apple-Space. 2. Type "draft3". 3. Select first item. And for finding "all my pictures" just create a Smart Folder based on a series of rules e.g. "File Type = JPG".
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#84Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think most people would agree a tag filesystem or a similar concept is a great idea. I have wanted one myself for a long time. Yet, for some reason, it doesn't take off. Do you think it is just a problem of implementation?
A few things I can see off the top of my head that would need to be solved for tag filesystems to be able to take off: 1. Inertia. Most software assumes hierarchical filesystems, and assumes it can control some portion of that hierarchy. This includes things ranging from search paths for various things ($PATH for binaries, library paths, etc), temporary files, preferences files for applications, assumptions made abou…
1. Inertia on hierarchies. Totally correct. I want to tackle immutable media collections first (photo, audio, video, documents), because developer tools (scripts, source code, path configurations) have a more intimate coupling with the hierarchial model.
2. Permissions. I have no clear answers. I suppose there could be a meta mechanism like, "for every file tagged as WordDocument, make it readable to $ANOTHER_USER". However, I believe the default of share-nothing is about the level that we get in most web-based applications. And I think the file-level permissions (like Unix, NTFS, etc.) are too fine-grained and confusing.
3. Mounting. I don't want to repeat myself, so first read https://www.nayuki.io/page/designing-better-file-organizatio... . However, it's true that you might want to vary the query domain depending on what you're doing.
4. Tag taxonomy. My proposal isn't any worse than the ad hoc taxonomies that people make in hierarchical file systems. At least when I proposed public "tag cores" (search in the article), there is one possibly viable way to unify everyone's vocabulary (opt-in, of course).
5. Projects. I suggest tagging every relevant file with its project tag. I'm not sure what you are pre-supposing with "pre-defined structure", because you could tag tags with the project tag. Also, I like the idea of tagging over hierarchies in this case because many of my project files also belong to other projects (e.g. monthly account statements vs. tax documents) or to a general stream (e.g. photos).
6. User interface. This is one of my big obstacles at the moment. With a hierarchy, there is really only one reasonable way to present the files, and one reasonable way to browse them. With tags, the options are numerous. There might even be metadata to control how tags are ranked, hidden, etc. At the very least, a UI would need to present many facets of metadata, such as file type, topic, timestamp, author, etc.
7. Necessity. You hinted at the problem in your statement. Application software have demonstrated to us that media libraries (e.g. songs in iTunes, photos in Adobe Lightroom) are extremely convenient and valuable. But they are all proprietary data silos. The metadata you generate is only accessible within one media program. Moving to a different program means giving up your investment. Also, media libraries are brittle, and when you move/rename the data files in the file system, the media library often behaves poorly (broken links, slow rescans, etc.). I believe that keeping metadata in an application-neutral format and letting the file system handle queries is a better alternative than proprietary media libraries. I wrote about this in a section: https://www.nayuki.io/page/designing-better-file-organizatio...
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#86As I recently inherited a huge, well-tagged music collection (tens of terabytes of files) I am very interested in this. Is there something like it, also supporting .cue files and also storing the original filenames and structure? A mediaplayer agnostic way to access this treasure trove would be the best.
[0] http://beets.io/
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#87> When people realize they need to classify a file in more than one way, they will start to use shortcuts/links to try to solve the problem. (Windows has shortcuts, Unix has soft/symbolic links, and Mac has aliases. This is a ubiquitous feature, but transferring shortcuts across existing platforms is very hard.) This sounds like a reasonable solution, but will face trouble in all but the simplest use cases. They rule…
Hi. Have you tried managing a collection of shortcuts? How do you deal with recategorization, removing files, renaming files, moving files to different storage devices, etc.? The article has a whole section illustrating why both hardlinks and softlinks won't work in the general case. https://www.nayuki.io/page/designing-better-file-organizatio...
Yes, that's the part I quoted.
> Have you tried managing a collection of shortcuts?
No, tagging is the bottleneck for me, which is why I don't think it will ever be useful.
> How do you deal with recategorization, removing files, renaming files, moving files to different storage devices, etc.?
Aside from moving to different storage device, you can make a minimum viable product with a few shell scripts, one to tag a file, one to untag, one to search by tag(s), one to listen for for events (move, delete). For bonus points you could do some auto tagging from meta data.
A working implementation (even with limitations) would be a lot more convincing than all this theory.
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#88Every time I use a tagging-based system, I become more convinced that tags are what I want for almost all things, not just files.
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hierarchical file systems allow you to say for sure where a file isn't. Every tagging system I've ever played with has turned out to be a mess in actual use compared to the simplicity a hierarchy provides. (I am just a user, not a developer of filesystems, so this may be a naive opinion.)
Tags are fun when you have a few thousand items to test your MVP with. It gets much less fun when you have millions of items with thousands of tags, all on a flat hierarchy. On the other hand, when you're stuck with a flat hierarchy anyway (e.g. thousands of pictures, all named DCIMxxxx.jpg), tags can be more useful. But only if they're automatic. I want the best of both worlds. I want to organize my stuff into folde…
In this hypothetical FS, all files would have dynamically generated tags for created date/time, modified date/time, access date/time, originating application, given filename, owner, group, permissions, format, geo-data if available, originating hostname, EXIF data should all be first-class tags as prominent as the others, and so on. I visualize it to work, by design, something like how google photos UX works, grouping everything by EXIF data automatically before you ever start organizing things on your own.
Just as well, with any files created manually, in the application "tagging" should be just as prominent a function as "naming" is right now.
Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
A few things I can see off the top of my head that would need to be solved for tag filesystems to be able to take off: 1. Inertia. Most software assumes hierarchical filesystems, and assumes it can control some portion of that hierarchy. This includes things ranging from search paths for various things ($PATH for binaries, library paths, etc), temporary files, preferences files for applications, assumptions made abou…
Once upon a time there was Google Desktop, and it was incredibly useful. I wouldn't trust Google on my machine anymore, but an open source replace ment would be great. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Desktop
Dunno about Windows or Your Favorite Unix. alternativeto.net may be of help: https://alternativeto.net/software/google-desktop/