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Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

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Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#81

Post by barrkel »

rdiddly wrote: post #23
barrkel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rightness is defined with respect to a system of rules. If being "right" leaves you dead, were you really right? Maybe in a legal sense, but is that the system that matters?

It's the one that matters for the rest of us who aren't dead!

It's precisely because you're not dead yet that you should act rightly according to the correctly chosen system.

I'm a biker. I can drive, but only ever drive rentals; motorcycles are my primary mode.

A sense of righteousness for being in the right on a bike will get you killed. You ride within the margin of not just your own error, but also those of other road users, and your own machine, with your best judgement and risk preference tradeoff.

If your machine has a known tendency to do something bad in some situation, you avoid that situation, even if you have someone else to blame. Blame doesn't keep you alive.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#82

Post by jschwartzi »

twblalock wrote: post #43
ucaetano wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but let's not blame the victim.

I'd definitely blame an airline pilot who crashed because he relied on autopilot in a situation he knew was not handled well by the autopilot. (I would also blame the autopilot.) I don't see why the driver of a car with any kind of semi-automated system should be held to a lesser standard. It sucks that the driver died, and it sucks that the Tesla autopilot system had problems handing that kind of situation, but that…

> I don't see why the driver of a car with any kind of semi-automated system should be held to a lesser standard.

Because the driver didn't receive any training from the manufacturer. Airplane pilots, in contrast, receive a ton of training right down to how to fly a specific type of aircraft(single-engine, twin-engine, instrument flying, etc.). Additionally the manufacturer will provide training to pilots on how to operate any nifty features of the commercial aircraft.

I don't believe Tesla provides any training whatsoever on how to use these features. And I'm not aware of any mechanisms preventing untrained users from activating these features. A tutorial that you can click through does not count because you do not ensure rapport with the trainee like you would in a person-to-person training.

Back when cars were being commoditized the dealer would often provide training to new drivers. And in all states new drivers are required to take a practical test to demonstrate that they are competent to drive. Does Tesla require their users to prove any sort of understanding or competence before they unlock Autopilot?

You might argue that requiring training sets a dangerous precedent, but users need to be made aware that the driver assistance systems are not foolproof, and the only foolproof way to do that is to require them to attend a training.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#83

Post by ikawe »

mohaine wrote: post #40
herbst wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out. This is more a hijack than a direct critique but I think the general issue is the assumption that we need a private vehicle for that. Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. Edit:// with years I mean years. Be…

In the US you will have lots of time to sleep due to waiting for an oncoming train to clear. In most parts of the country we don't have dedicated passenger tracks. Amtrak (our passenger line) just rents track time on the freight lines. The problem is that freight lines are often single track lines so if there is oncoming freight you just wait until the freight clears. Sometimes this his hours. Until we have dedicated…

Nah, I love it.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#84

Post by jjtheblunt »

segmondy wrote: post #19

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs to be made for auto-pilot. If your auto-pilot acts up at all. Just turn it off and don't use it till it's resolved. All you need is one incident to be dead, so if you get a chance to observe any abnormalities, consider it a blessing. Something that will also be g…

That's existed for well over a century : trains.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#85

Post by Robotbeat »

utopcell wrote: post #69

Why call something "auto-pilot" when it is clearly not remotely ready to do what its name implies ?

It’s an aviation term, and it does exactly what an aviation autopilot does: assist the pilot.

They didn’t call it “self-driving” or “autonomous” because it isn’t those things.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#86

Post by gomox »

erk__ wrote: post #59
ekianjo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in Europe to get from A to B you need to switch trains super often. Like in France you almost always need to go to Paris first before going somewhere else because the network is so centralized around Paris.

But even then you can get to paris pretty fast. I have had similar problems where I had to go to Karlsruhe from Flensburg to get a train to paris, as that was the fastest route.

To be fair that's not really a reasonable train trip for people that want to actually get there as opposed to riding a train. Probably above 9 hours compared to a sub-2h flight. Train routes that are more meaningful tend to be better serviced.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#87

Post by domevent »

Robotbeat wrote: post #85
utopcell wrote: post #69

Why call something "auto-pilot" when it is clearly not remotely ready to do what its name implies ?

It’s an aviation term, and it does exactly what an aviation autopilot does: assist the pilot. They didn’t call it “self-driving” or “autonomous” because it isn’t those things.

It’s also a car, and not a plane. Do they also call the wheels propellers? It’s a misleading term for the majority of people who don’t fly their own planes.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#88

Post by ghfbjdhhv »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #29
ForHackernews wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah! Isn't it obvious that a feature named "autopilot" means you have to watch it like a hawk, keep your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel?

Should be. Obviously people get their notion of "autopilot" from science fiction, not from aviation.

It’s a car, not a plane. Why is the definition from aviation more relevant than the definition from science fiction (which also happens to be closer to the plain English understanding of the phrase)?

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#89

Post by root_axis »

twblalock wrote: post #43
ucaetano wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but let's not blame the victim.

I'd definitely blame an airline pilot who crashed because he relied on autopilot in a situation he knew was not handled well by the autopilot. (I would also blame the autopilot.) I don't see why the driver of a car with any kind of semi-automated system should be held to a lesser standard. It sucks that the driver died, and it sucks that the Tesla autopilot system had problems handing that kind of situation, but that…

Pilots have extensive aviation training, the general population thinks of "autopilot" as a thing that will automatically pilot your vehicle. What did Tesla think would happen?
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