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Being frugal is for the rich

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Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#81

Post by knuththetruth »

pitaj wrote: post #73
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #54

The word missing from this discussion is "structural" - there are deep structural changes to how the job market and economy now works that limit the economic prospects of millennials (as a group) in ways that can't readily be overcome with thriftiness and hard work. Here's an excerpt of the article that really clarified this for me: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in…

The specific example you bring up seems to be a result of increased liability on the employer for employees. Hotels etc would rather contractors carry those liabilities, especially I imagine when it comes to possibly illegal immigrants.

Sure, but that's not some kind of neutral, organic development. It's something the rich choose to do, in collusion with politicians, to increase their own wealth and power.

Shifting all the "liability" onto workers, creating an economy where everyone but the wealthiest are fungible serfs, is a specific set of values and decisions advanced by these people because it benefits them.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#82

Post by adrianN »

anigbrowl wrote: post #6
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

You're missing the point. The 'frugal culture' is selling the idea that this is the road to economic self-sufficiency while omitting or glossing over other significant information, like having a very healthy income stream to begin with. If you're poor, being frugal is very unlikely to lift you out of poverty. That doesn't mean frugality is bad, but that marketing is as the key to financial stability is deceptive.

When you're living paycheck to paycheck with literally nothing in the bank, being frugal is the difference between a broken washing machine causing debt and life without financial doom from emergencies.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#83

Post by trebor »

SolarNet wrote: post #68
joefourier wrote: post #11

American salaries are difficult to make sense of from a European perspective. The referenced average salary of $36,000/year for millennials with only a high-school diploma would be a normal entry-level salary for a software engineer in most of Western Europe, and a very good salary for experienced engineers in Eastern Europe. Tax burden is higher here as well, and while the cost of housing is exorbitant many parts of…

We don't have adequate public transportation (so car + car insurance + car maintenance). And our cities were never really designed to be walk-able or bike-able. While we have compulsory health insurance not dissimilar to the German system, most areas only have one or two providers (vs. 130 of Germany) whose prices have been going up like 30% every year. We still pay out of pocket for most medicine, dentistry, emergen…

You forgot the housing/rental situation too. In my area, renting is 33% - 50% of _take home pay_ (after withholding taxes), without utilities or property tax.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#84

Post by vorpalhex »

legulere wrote: post #65
vorpalhex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

Mass produced goods including furniture is cheaper nowadays but everything else is more expensive. This includes essential things like housing and healthcare. Further the needs have also grown: without a car it’s impossible for most people to have a job

> but everything else is more expensive

Yes and no. One thing to keep in mind is inflation, so we always need to compare prices to average incomes. A house is listed as being However, things have genuinely gotten more expensive in some cases usually due not to the economy, but due to safety. That's a good thing - we no longer have asbestos and lead paint, cars are safer, and working fire alarms are a thing. However, those things do cost money. You can no longer buy an all metal box that goes 80mph without seatbelts or airbags.

I find the car claim to be somewhat of a red herring. Yes, you need a car now whereas before a bicycle might of sufficed. However, a decent car can be had for two thousand dollars - not a pretty one, but a functional one. You might be able to go cheaper if you have any mechanical ability, but we'll assume the average person doesn't have that.

In addition now of course you need drivers insurance, and you probably need to take a drivers ed course before getting your license. Those things do add cost, but they also save lives.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#85

Post by ikeyany »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #54

The word missing from this discussion is "structural" - there are deep structural changes to how the job market and economy now works that limit the economic prospects of millennials (as a group) in ways that can't readily be overcome with thriftiness and hard work. Here's an excerpt of the article that really clarified this for me: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in…

What can the average person do about this system? It seems like it's only becoming more widespread.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#86

Post by gnicholas »

SolarNet wrote: post #68
joefourier wrote: post #11

American salaries are difficult to make sense of from a European perspective. The referenced average salary of $36,000/year for millennials with only a high-school diploma would be a normal entry-level salary for a software engineer in most of Western Europe, and a very good salary for experienced engineers in Eastern Europe. Tax burden is higher here as well, and while the cost of housing is exorbitant many parts of…

We don't have adequate public transportation (so car + car insurance + car maintenance). And our cities were never really designed to be walk-able or bike-able. While we have compulsory health insurance not dissimilar to the German system, most areas only have one or two providers (vs. 130 of Germany) whose prices have been going up like 30% every year. We still pay out of pocket for most medicine, dentistry, emergen…

I agree with much of this, but where is 2 mbps internet $80?

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#87

Post by Consultant32452 »

danudey wrote: post #49
throwaway84742 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most young people do need to be more thoughtful about their money, though. And the economy as a whole is, by multiple different metrics, the best it’s ever been. It’s just that this greatness needs to be spread a bit wider. In the capitalist system with a labor market as tight as we’ve ever seen it this is addressed by getting another job for more money. Now is a good time to do it. You are responsible for your own s…

The economy is the best its ever been, but wealth inequality is the worst its ever been. The cost of living has gone up far, far faster than income has, while wages have stagnated or dropped, meaning people these days are earning less money and have more expenses than before. To hear someone who was making $10/hour out of college and bought a home for $40,000 say that the reason millennials can't buy a home today is…

Do you actually care about the well-being of the poor, or do you just hate the rich? Because you seem much more concerned about the relative difference between the rich and the poor than you do about the nominal well-being of anyone. Population densities have increased and it's more expensive to live in cities. That's for sure. We opened up free trade which gave the American middle class a minor kick in the pants at the expense of bringing huge swaths of India and China up to a position of basic food security, increased healthcare, education, and just about every other measurement of well-being you can think of.

Your essential argument is that from a relative perspective the American middle class is not as well off as it was during a unique time following WWII during which the American middle class reached the highest levels of relative wealth in the history of the planet. Okay, but they're still nominally better off than they were back then and an almost unimaginable number of people have had their lives dramatically improved across the globe in the process.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#88

Post by rgbrenner »

vorpalhex wrote: post #32
qntty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. ... Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with about a months worth of wages.

You do understand there's a difference between a month of wages and having a month of wages saved to spend, right?

Considering most people live month to month... saving an entire month would take many people more than 2 years.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#89

Post by proofbygazing »

qntty wrote: post #7
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

It's kind of hard for me to believe that some people's analysis of their own behavior is this tragically dependent on what other people think.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#90

Post by specialist »

vorpalhex wrote: post #32
qntty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

Did your grandparents retire? At what age? How are they doing now?

For comparison, when do you plan to retire?

Now do the same run down for your entire cohort.

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