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An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

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Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#81
post #64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a homogenous culture of a large corporation, where each dev is a cog in the system, yes, i would agree that this person will not fit. If i had a start-up, i would definitely give this person a good old try, because i can tell that he/she is capable enough to churn out rather advanced projects with complexity higher than just CRUD. Programmers of this type is what i'd call 10x, and one should never dismiss a 10x!

I would be even more hesitant to hire for a startup! can this person grow with the startup? what happens when we have 10, 20, 30+ engineers - how will they work with the team - will they second guess everything? will everything be an argument? I'm not doubting this persons ability - I'm only responding my opinion of this person based solely on this email.

What kind of startup hesitates to have arguments?

I have never been in a startup that fears arguments. Every startup I have been a part of has lively debates and arguments almost every other day. It's only the large slow moving corporate giants where I see such lack of debate and arguments on what is obviously wrong.

I would go to the extent of saying that a startup that does not encourage arguments in a harmonious fashion would die very soon anyway. Debates and arguments help in weeding out stupid ideas and focus on what that really matters.

This person's email shows that he can have a qualitative argument in a coherent, polite, and non-confrontational fashion - exactly the kind of people you need in startups!

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#82
Many recruitment agencies won't even talk to you until you pass some FizzBuzz test on HackerRank or similar. Even Facebook strongly suggest you to take their own training based off similar platform and Google does something similar. So it seems that even entry level jobs these days require Googlesque excellence just to get your foot in the door. It's similar to law firms requiring you to take parts of bar exam during your interview or physicians to perform autopsy during interview. Even worse situation is with Machine Learning now, where you are expected to answer PhD exam-style questions for entry level data augmentation jobs. Unless you are from Top 10 school your credentials don't matter at all. It's IMO complete insanity and I am throwing such companies out of the door instantly unless they offer $500k+/year. Then we can talk that way.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#83
post #8

You want a personalized interview, styled exactly for you ? I would be a 'no' if i were interviewing me. You obviously can program but this makes you appear to be someone who would be difficult to work with.

Yea, silly people are living in the misconception that companies are any way interested in their personality. While it's really just about to obey, and follow command. People have to understand that they have to fit the soulless masses and have to be tested accordingly...

If that wasn't sarcasm, you should find a better employer ;-)

p.s. Even at the best companies there is some truth in what you say, but it varies a lot.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#84
Programmer and owner of a technical recruitment agency here. I forked and rewrote the whole thing: https://gist.github.com/iwangu/b0d8b8e140afdd4e30bb7e401babc...

I made it more generic so more people can use it and removed things that make no sense to me as a recruiter. Also, I deleted all the patronizing parts and made the English simpler. If you start quoting authors and even think I am going to read articles linked in footnotes, you're wrong. I think many HR people will just ignore you if you e-mail this. They won't want to talk to you because you signal that you will be hard to work with and you clearly don't value time of others. Your e-mail is way too long. Seven paragraphs with bullet-points, are you kidding? RIGHT NOW, I have 197 other e-mail conversations in my inbox that are easier to read than this essay.

I wrote a blogpost why programmers don't get jobs due to random factors (https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/why-software-engineers-dont...), but this is one of these things where just shoot yourself in the foot by being too demanding too early in the process. (You can be demanding ONLY AFTER they told you that they want to hire you, but not before)

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#85
I have no allegiance to the HackerRank or the current hiring process of most Bay Area tech companies. The basic formula is: first a chat with the recruiter/hiring manager to establish interest; follow up with a screener that is a take-home exercise, HackerRank exercise, or phone interview with an exercise; then a four to five hour on-site. This is a lot of time for everyone involved.

What are the alternatives?

They need to minimize time, give everyone a fair chance, and improve the signal. I certainly wouldn't say the current method is great at meeting those criteria.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#86
You are not alone in your frustration, and I suspect most people here will sympathize with you as this topic comes up quite often in the software community. Just be aware that drawing this kind of line in the sand is going to greatly limit your options.

If you want to be evaluated in a more holistic manner (including side projects) you'll probably have better luck with very small companies. When the people in charge will actually be the ones working with you every day, and they are only filling a small number of positions, they will be more likely to find it worthwhile to get to know you as a whole person during the hiring process.

Unfortunately, once a company is beyond a certain size this just isn't possible because it doesn't scale. They have to fill hundreds or thousands of positions and also maintain a universal set of hiring standards. Things degrade into a game of numbers. This makes cookie-cutter tests almost inevitable.

While frustrating in their own right, for me what makes things worse is that you have to do one of these screens for every single company you apply to. And most companies have the same evaluation goals for the phone screen stage (e.g., do you actually understand data structures & algorithms).

What I'd really like to see is the emergence of something like a "common app" for software hiring. Outsource technical screening to a reputable third-party, and once you've proven yourself by obtaining a good enough "score" you can move immediately to on-sites (what constitutes a "good" score would vary by company). This doesn't solve the problem of the efficacy of technical screens, but it at least cuts down on all the redundant effort.

Two services I've tried so far that are doing something like this are Interviewing.io and A-List. Unfortunately it seems these services merely make it easier to get a phone screen, rather than replacing them. But it seems like a step in the right direction.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#87
I don't think I can find it right now, but I recall a comment by Patrick MacKenzie (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11) to the effect that companies that have onerous interviews often also have a "cheat code" path for highly accomplished candidates (well known figures, or someone who's strongly vouched for by someone highly trusted within the company) who find the normal interview process unwelcome.

This response seems like an attempt to engineer that path out of nothing. Good luck, but you can also avoid these interviews if you can make those connections/build your reputation to the right extent.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#88
post #82

Many recruitment agencies won't even talk to you until you pass some FizzBuzz test on HackerRank or similar. Even Facebook strongly suggest you to take their own training based off similar platform and Google does something similar. So it seems that even entry level jobs these days require Googlesque excellence just to get your foot in the door. It's similar to law firms requiring you to take parts of bar exam during…

If "Googlesque excellence" is passing FizzBuzz then I am severely undercompensated.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#90

As someone responsible for hiring developers, these quizzes seem like an absolute waste of time. As an applicant it's almost insulting. I've been a part of two great alternatives: a pair programming session with the lead dev and adding some features/refactoring a sample project. I'd be curious if anyone here is responsible for hiring devs and finds hackerrank type tests useful.

I've never used HackerRank personally (although I'm looking into for the next round of hiring I'll be involved in), but it seems it might be kind of useful as one step towards deciding which of the 50-100 candidates that applied you should invite to the pair programming session. You simply cannot have your lead dev doing pair programming sessions with 50+ candidates for each job opening.
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