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Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

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Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#81

I don't think that his involvements in WW I are justified by his achievements in chemistry in favor of world population problems. Someone else would have found a way to bind nitrogen without him and so feed billions of people in the end. Much later perhaps, but eventually still. Yet, most of today's populus have barely enough to eat. So, ultimataly the problem remains unsolved, or it shifted even. Haber was not a sol…

I think you underestimate your capacity to commit a bad deed if you're in a situation to do so.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's another simplistic approach. You can place praise or blame without saying that they were literally indispensable for its existence. Making it happen a few months or years sooner is praiseworthy in itself.

I don't think you're following what I'm arguing from your response - let me re-state - I'm not saying that the "truth" is that Fritz Haber is the only one who could've "discovered" his procedure for ammonia, at any point, or even at any point in the 1910's; that is likely not the case in reality. I am making a separate argument - this would not have been invented at all, yet, if humans, throughout history, did not ce…

I understood what you wrote initially.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such unspeakable things that all the good stuff instantly fades Well, in 50-100 years noone would really care about atrocities of ww2, just like almost noone cares about ww1 now, and literary noone about the atrocities of the wars before ww1. But "the world-changing things" will stay, and the people who created these things will be remembered

I don't agree. The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. It's the bad things generations of people remember, the good things not so much. You know, hate sows war, war sows hate. T…

> The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad.

Is it really? I think most people only remember them as successful conquerors.

> British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I.

Depends! The British Empire lasted until the 1960s -- arguably 1997. That's much fresher than WW1 or WW2.

Besides, who remembers the British concentration camps?

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#85
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. It's the bad things generations of people remember, the good things not so much. You know, hate sows war, war sows hate. T…

> The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. Is it really? I think most people only remember them as successful conquerors. > British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. Depends! The British Empire lasted until the 1960s --…

Lots of people remember the Irish and Indian famines.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#86

I don't think that his involvements in WW I are justified by his achievements in chemistry in favor of world population problems. Someone else would have found a way to bind nitrogen without him and so feed billions of people in the end. Much later perhaps, but eventually still. Yet, most of today's populus have barely enough to eat. So, ultimataly the problem remains unsolved, or it shifted even. Haber was not a sol…

"Someone else would have found a way to bind nitrogen without him and so feed billions of people in the end."

The same logic that wipes out his achievement could also absolve him of his sin. Certainly someone else would have also invented chlorine gas.

Based on the little I've read of him I agree that he doesn't sound like a great guy (though I certainly don't know enough to really have an informed opinion). But, more generally, I oppose the notion that summarizing someone is as simple as a toggle switch between good and bad; I think that's too reductionist. Humans are (and the world is) more complicated than that.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#87
Wow, the article is full of just enough half-truths that I wonder what its real intent was. You get the impression from it that Germany was the first to use chemical weapons in the Great War — but it wasn't: France started, with the use of tear gas.

Use of gas projectors did not violate the 1899 Hague Declaration against use of gas-filled projectiles. Use of irritants like chlorine arguably didn't violate the 1904 Hague Convention on use of poison or poisoned weapons (is an irritant a poison? does dosage matter?).

The first German use of chemical weapons (tear gas, again) was on the Eastern Front, near Warsaw, not at Ypres. I don't know if the use of chlorine at Ypres was intended as an irritant or a poison — it's been too long since I studied the history.

> As Germany’s population grew along with their economy, the newly formed country became ambitious. The decision was made to further their status in the world by attacking France through Belgium.

That's a description of the beginning of the Great War so short that it's a lie. It's not as though the Germans woke up one morning and thought, 'hey, let's invade France!' The reason Germany attacked France was that Russia had mobilised on her eastern borders, while France was mobilising to her west (and the belief was that France was the far deadlier foe). This was in an era in which a mobilised army was believed to mean almost certain victory. And the reason that Germany invaded Belgium was that the French frontier was too heavily fortified. As it turned out, that was a good operational decision but an extraordinarily poor strategic one: while the German Army almost got to Paris, violation of Belgian neutrality led to Britain's entry into the war.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#88
post #2

What an insane and fascinating read. Two things occured to me: I don’t really understand how and why war happens. Like, it starts out as two parties both wanting the same resource, and then somebody says “over my dead body” or something and then a million other people decide to also join in this fight? I do not get it. The other thing is : The “inherent harm of technology”. Every single advancement will 100% hurt som…

A war is always the ultimate escalation of conflict of interests. "Over my dead body" is literally the line, as you said.

As for technology, the purpose of a machine or a construct is primarily a solution to problems which made people's lifes difficult. The solutions of technology make people's lifes easier, more secure, but it also bears risks and unsforseen consequences. That's not always that case, as the special case of war clearly show it. War machinery makes people's lifes worse, but it's not the fault of machinery or technologies, it the fault of people waging wars.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#89
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. Is it really? I think most people only remember them as successful conquerors. > British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. Depends! The British Empire lasted until the 1960s --…

Lots of people remember the Irish and Indian famines.

Good point! That's true -- just didn't come to mind when I was posting my earlier comment.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#90
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're following what I'm arguing from your response - let me re-state - I'm not saying that the "truth" is that Fritz Haber is the only one who could've "discovered" his procedure for ammonia, at any point, or even at any point in the 1910's; that is likely not the case in reality. I am making a separate argument - this would not have been invented at all, yet, if humans, throughout history, did not ce…

I understood what you wrote initially.

Then I will argue your initial response is a non-sequitur to my initial comment - it's not a question of whether of whether or not we "can" or "cannot" diminish one's role in something - we certainly can. But, we're a competitive species. I think it has been an important characteristic in our evolution. In the alternate reality where people don't take overstated credit for success, in whatever form, Haber and all the other scientists who probably grew up reading of the great scientists who came before them that they wanted to emulate may have been tribal village raiders (I'm exaggerating, very slightly). Frankly, any form of desire to see somebody else's limelight revoked likely stems from their own competitivity and insecurity.
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