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Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

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Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#81

Post by ucaetano »

jankeymeulen wrote: post #79
ryanianian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately the problem is that their incentives aren't really aligned with yours. They're only incentivized to do the absolute minimum it takes to keep you around. As they control more and more of your world, they've increased your cost to leave and they can do even less to benefit you explcitly. I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Ba…

2016 had $90B revenues and 1.5B 30d active users (for YouTube) so $60 per year would be a good guess. (Disclaimer: I'm a Googler but I just got these numbers from public statements. No way I'm well paid enough to be able to see more detailed numbers. :-D )

gSuite is exactly that: $5/month/user for the basic package, and does exactly what the grandparent wants.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#82

Post by UncleMeat »

mattmanser wrote: post #69
linsomniac wrote: post #56

I feel like I'm in the minority, but I'm mostly ok with Google. I feel like they are good stewards of my data (encrypting even internal traffic, severe restrictions on who can get access to my data, doing useful things with that data). I believe Facebook has similar policies in place. I think their biggest sins are just being big. It makes them a larger target (which probably necessitates them taking extreme protecti…

Didn't they only encrypt internal traffic after the Snowdon revelation?

They started encrypting before the leaks happened.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#83

Post by ams6110 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #65
linsomniac wrote: post #56

I feel like I'm in the minority, but I'm mostly ok with Google. I feel like they are good stewards of my data (encrypting even internal traffic, severe restrictions on who can get access to my data, doing useful things with that data). I believe Facebook has similar policies in place. I think their biggest sins are just being big. It makes them a larger target (which probably necessitates them taking extreme protecti…

The need for exponential growth will force all big players into making more money and doing shadier things more and more. I am especially concerned about Google and Facebook since they haven't figured any way for making for making money other than selling ads. Apple and MS at least have products they sell. I think we really should start making it difficult for companies to grow beyond a certain size. I think they are…

Companies that grow beyond a certain size become laden with inertia and overhead. Smaller companies can come along and disrupt them. Facebook did this to MySpace. Someone will do it to Facebook, eventually.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#84

Post by resu_nimda »

rhizome wrote: post #77
resu_nimda wrote: post #59

Google and Facebook also use your data as input for increasingly sophisticated AI algorithms that put you in a filter bubble — an alternate digital universe that controls what you see in their products, based on what their algorithms think you are most likely to click on. These echo chambers distort people's reality, creating a myriad of unintended consequences such as increasing societal polarization. How is this an…

I think it’s worth asking what impact they’ve really had on this basic facet of life Absolutely zero, and have arguably made it worse.

Yes, I am asking what those arguments are. Keeping in mind that “worse” is a relative term, i.e. it needs to be demonstrated how it was better at some other time, which the article seems to assume a priori.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#85

Post by addicted »

ucaetano wrote: post #80
ryanianian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately the problem is that their incentives aren't really aligned with yours. They're only incentivized to do the absolute minimum it takes to keep you around. As they control more and more of your world, they've increased your cost to leave and they can do even less to benefit you explcitly. I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Ba…

"Ultimately the problem is that their incentives aren't really aligned with yours. They're only incentivized to do the absolute minimum it takes to keep you around. As they control more and more of your world, they've increased your cost to leave and they can do even less to benefit you explcitly." Are you criticizing Google or companies in general? Because your criticism applies to any company in the world. > I like…

It doesn't apply to all companies.

Apple, for example, has very strong incentives to maintain your privacy, to the point that they have made it a selling point for their devices and are also suffering in the realms of machine learning because they are not leveraging your data the way Google or FB would.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#86

Post by bogomipz »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #55
bogomipz wrote: post #46

>"Google and Facebook's hidden trackers across the Internet,..." Are these "hidden trackers" mentioned in the article just the normal beacons or are they referring to something new? Are these relevant if a person is not logged into neither FB or Google or if someone has uBlock Origin/Privacy Badger installed?

Facebook, at least, is quite happy to build your shadow profile regardless of whether you're logged in.

Right, they're buying those from 3rd party data brokers I believe. This is the place where legislation is needed so people can own their own data. I would love to see some clearing house that sends out requests to people saying "Facebook or whomever is interested in acquiring your day" and you are given the option of approving or denying.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#87

Post by kasey_junk »

Fej wrote: post #49

The metaphorical Pandora's box has been opened, and the contents aren't going back in. Best we can hope for is practical legislation. The EU is ahead on this one. Its GDPR is going to throw a massive wrench in these practices.

I don't think that GDPR is going to disrupt the google/facebook dominance in advertising nor curtail their collecting data about you. In fact, I believe GDPR rewards their walled garden/integration strategy.

The most onerous and problematic parts of GDPR for adtech companies is the acquisition of consent to share the data they gather with their partners. This means that every barrier from publisher, to ad network, to advertiser needs to be consented. Google/Facebook are themselves massive players at each of those levels and therefore can skip that step.

We don't know what will happen in the future, but I suspect that Google/Facebook will leverage their systems at both the publisher and advertiser areas to put more of the ecosystem into their systems.

This may be ok, consolidating your information into a couple of big players that have an even more holistic view of you might be preferable to having little views of you all over the internet. But its worse for advertisers and publishers and I find it disconcerting.

* Disclaimer: I work on GDPR related topics, this is my opinion and not that of my employer

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#88

Post by Slansitartop »

ryanianian wrote: post #72
linsomniac wrote: post #56

I feel like I'm in the minority, but I'm mostly ok with Google. I feel like they are good stewards of my data (encrypting even internal traffic, severe restrictions on who can get access to my data, doing useful things with that data). I believe Facebook has similar policies in place. I think their biggest sins are just being big. It makes them a larger target (which probably necessitates them taking extreme protecti…

Ultimately the problem is that their incentives aren't really aligned with yours. They're only incentivized to do the absolute minimum it takes to keep you around. As they control more and more of your world, they've increased your cost to leave and they can do even less to benefit you explcitly. I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Ba…

> I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Basically a freemium model.

You do have the ability to pay for some of them (G Suite aka Google Apps for Business), but even then you might not get what you want, since 99% of their users like you are still products. I'm reminded of this quote from Josh Marshall:

> One thing I’ve observed with Google over the years is that it is institutionally so used to its ‘customers’ actually being its products that when it gets into businesses where it actually has customers it really has little sense of how to deal with them. (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-serf-on-googles-farm)

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#89

Post by ryanianian »

Slansitartop wrote: post #88
ryanianian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately the problem is that their incentives aren't really aligned with yours. They're only incentivized to do the absolute minimum it takes to keep you around. As they control more and more of your world, they've increased your cost to leave and they can do even less to benefit you explcitly. I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Ba…

> I like google's services. What I want is the ability to pay for them and not be a part of the product they sell in ads. Basically a freemium model. You do have the ability to pay for some of them (G Suite aka Google Apps for Business), but even then you might not get what you want, since 99% of their users like you are still products. I'm reminded of this quote from Josh Marshall: > One thing I’ve observed with Goo…

I'm pretty sure this doesn't let you opt-out of ad targeting for search nor does it prevent them from using your maps and other data in their b2b offerings.

Re: Google and Facebook are watching our every move online

#90

Post by maxxxxx »

ams6110 wrote: post #83
maxxxxx wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The need for exponential growth will force all big players into making more money and doing shadier things more and more. I am especially concerned about Google and Facebook since they haven't figured any way for making for making money other than selling ads. Apple and MS at least have products they sell. I think we really should start making it difficult for companies to grow beyond a certain size. I think they are…

Companies that grow beyond a certain size become laden with inertia and overhead. Smaller companies can come along and disrupt them. Facebook did this to MySpace. Someone will do it to Facebook, eventually.

Eventually someone will disrupt them. But there will be a long time span before that where they can compensate for their lack of innovation by buying out possible competition with a lot of money.
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