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People leave managers, not companies

blog.intercom.com

81–90 of 186 posts

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#81

I think this article misses an important point, which is that managers, or at least line managers, are often the messenger for decisions made in upper management. If I think back on the jobs I've had in the past, it's very rare for me to have issues with line managers. However, I had serious doubts about the competency of upper management in multiple companies that I've worked for. In this case, unless upper manageme…

I am in exact this situation as well and I did give notice. Thought we have left this era behind years ago, seems I was wrong.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#82
post #18

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee. I used to w…

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9a…

An old co-worker of mine used to work for a company that made flight simulators. He said his manager would stand in the front foyer on the 2nd floor and make notes of who arrived after 9:00am.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#83
No, people leave companies too. Using my throwaway account because I don't want my name attached to this.

I went contract-to-hire at my current job. When it came time to come on full-time, the offer they made was far too low to accept. The owner of the company made a big deal out of the bonus and at the time I believed him. I held out for $5k more before accepting.

Fast forward a year later and I'm really looking forward to this bonus. It was 5% of my salary, basically an extra paycheck. I was expecting at least three times that because of what he said during the negotiation. I started looking that day and am interviewing with two companies.

I've since realized that I just don't want to work for consultants anymore. You're being farmed out and your labor is being arbitraged. This incentivizes them to dick you on comp. I know in his mind it's just business, but I don't want that in my life anymore.

So while the thesis of this article may hold for a certain segment of the labor market, it certainly doesn't hold for all of them. Some segments just suck. Conflicts of interest in these segments invariably pit line workers against management and no amount of manager cordialness or professionalism will prevent turnover.

Sure there are a few workplaces that have ironed out conflicts of interest and so can attract the cream of the crop, these places can build nice engineer caves and then personal relationships rather than endemic conflicts of interest become the dominant cultural factor that drives turnover. But these guys trying to tell the rest of the world's managers how to run a shop is just profoundly naive.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#84

Tellingly, when I interviewed with Intercom their "culture fit" manager was extremely rude and condescending, and constantly interrupted. Everyone else was polite, but if this is the person who gets to decide "yeah, they'd fit in here" that's a pretty huge problem. People turn you down because of managers, not companies, too.

Funnily enough, I like Intercom's hiring process (as it appears on paper). But...my real life experience was quite different.

Interviewed by a precocious child who didn't have interview skills.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#85
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? The worst metric. That is, unless the "turning up on time" is actually causing a serious and recognizable problem. Then it's the problem that's a problem. >As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. No it doesn't. If you put the onus on the developer and say "not only do you have to deliver high quality code you have to make me trust that you've deliver…

> A good manager will either recognize that you're delivering or not. And a great manager will evaluate the wider effects of your behavior on the whole team and over a long timescale. If you being late to your job causes others to start doing the same, and if your manager cuts you slack because you are a "high performer" then social dynamics come into play that must be...well...managed! Performance also slips over ti…

>If you being late to your job causes others to start doing the same

If they also are producing and not causing other people problems then I see no problem.

However, if they are not producing then that is a problem. However, if they are coming in on time and not producing that is exactly the same problem.

The point is that one problem is unrelated to the other.

>social dynamics come into play

Social dynamics always come into play but in this instance, they really don't matter. If a manager knows how well everybody is performing and is communicating that then these other intra-team dynamics you are talking about simply don't happen.

It seems to me that you're coming at this from the perspective of a manager who fundamentally does not understand what they are managing and isn't cognizant of who is performing and obviously isn't communicating that because they don't know.

Because that's exactly when you would see the intra-team dynamics which you're describing will happen. That is what happens on most software teams, sadly :(

>Success is a marathon, not a sprint

I never said or implied that it was anything else.

>Stop focusing on yourself and the immediate moment.

I am focusing on neither.

I am beginning to suspect that you are exactly the kind of manager I'm talking about here. Hi.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#86
post #13

The best software teams I've worked on didn't have managers, they had facilitators.

bingo.

people who have natural leadership qualities can facilitate without thinking it harms their worth. too often, unsuitable people will be thrust into a management/leadership type role just because there is a (sudden, genuine) void that needs feeling(sudden growth /sudden departure).

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#87
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize - you can tell when bugs are getting fixed and features are being delivered and when they are not. Getting work done to a high standard and delivered at an appropriate speed is, I think, only recognizable by another developer who is as good or better than you. >Personally, I always try…

Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize Bob closed 20 tickets this week, and Dave is still working on that one ticket from last week. Who got most work done this week?

>Bob closed 20 tickets this week, and Dave is still working on that one ticket from last week. Who got most work done this week?

You get an equally or more skilled developer than Bob and Dave to monitor their output and ask them that question. That's the only way.

Was that not obvious from my answer? C'mon.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#88
post #84

Tellingly, when I interviewed with Intercom their "culture fit" manager was extremely rude and condescending, and constantly interrupted. Everyone else was polite, but if this is the person who gets to decide "yeah, they'd fit in here" that's a pretty huge problem. People turn you down because of managers, not companies, too.

Funnily enough, I like Intercom's hiring process (as it appears on paper). But...my real life experience was quite different. Interviewed by a precocious child who didn't have interview skills.

Intercom does a fantastic job with content marketing. I'm not sure how much it reflects reality, though. Again, most of the people I talked to were polite; it was just one extremely off-putting interviewer. I nearly thought it must be some kind of perverse test to see how I handle jerks.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, no -- not everyone thinks that. I would be a horrible manager. And I know plenty of people who feel the same way about themselves. I am totally happy leaving that job to someone who is better suited for it.

Many people may not think they are qualified to be a manager. However, it seems plausible to me that of the people who think they are qualified to be a manager, most are not.

It seems obvious that coding and managing are different jobs, and being good at one is not associated with being good at the other.

Good software team management is a superset of coding skill. Not only does the manager need to have reasonable - not necessarily outstanding - developer skills, but also needs to have good people skills, good political skills, a feel for context and strategy, and an ability to improvise creative solutions across all these domains.

The idea that someone who is good at coding should be promoted to management automatically seems bizarre. It's like expecting someone who is good at mountain biking to be good at driving a tank.

So is the idea that management can be measured with "objective" metrics, such as locs, time on/off, bugs killed, and so on.

In fact it's horrifically difficult to quantify the business ROI of software teams or of individual developers. ROI often depends on decisions made higher up the food chain, and it's even harder to get upper management to take responsibility for the consequences of bad decisions and bad attitudes.

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