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Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

nytimes.com

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Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#81

Post by santoriv »

maehwasu wrote: post #51
bbddg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the laws of physics don't apply to software engineering?

They're not the fundamental constraint in work output differences. IQ/ability gaps matter way more than they do in programming than they do in construction work.

Let's not forget that there are unions for highly skilled labor as well. When I was a classical musician I belonged to a very robust and very helpful musician's union. Everyone I know _always_ had a preference for union gigs as they usually paid better and ensured that you didn't have to deal with all sorts of nonsense from your employer (like rehearsals running overtime, not getting paid in a timely manner, blind auditions, etc).

Professional classical musicians require a great deal more training (and talent) than programmers to get to the level where they can make a living doing it.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#83

Post by tptacek »

ng12 wrote: post #5
chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time?

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building?

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers have stories about working late at night and on weekends to ship features on bogus accelerated schedules they had little hand in setting?

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers accept payment in the form of equity that has to be executed at great expense immediately after leaving the company, and offers no actual guarantee of return after making that investment?

If it's a "seller's market", why are developers forced to move to the most expensive real estate markets in the country to work every day from a particular office when their work can be done more productively from their own home offices?

If it's a "seller's market", why are so many developers compensated with equity whose terms they're not even allowed to fully understand? And why is it that their common shares are last in line after liquidation preferences and VCs take their rake?

I don't understand how you can spend more than a few months on Hacker News without seeing the litany of complaints developers have about their working conditions. Not simply how much they're paid --- and make no mistake, plenty of developers have those complaints, and feel victimized by the way compensation is negotiated for in this market --- but also simply for how inefficiently and inhumanely their jobs are structured compared to what they so obviously could be.

Tech workers should organize. United they bargain, divided they write anonymous complaints on HN.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#84

Post by Avshalom »

earthtolazlo wrote: post #30
icelancer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It is interesting that programmers (as a whole) seem resistant to it Software developers and people in IT are probably two orders of magnitude more likely to be libertarian / anarcho-capitalist and conservative in economic views than your average union worker in another field. That's definitely a large impact as well.

I think this is the gist of it. Most of the arguments I’ve seen against unionization seem to appeal to the inflated egos that a lot of developers possess.

And a lot of "oh God what if people who had been working there for 30 years made more than me"

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#85

Post by tptacek »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #76

How does unionization protect workers against the decline in demand for journalists and the collapse of the newspaper industry? (serious question)

Here's one possible way: by exploiting their negotiating position to act as a check against management's impulses to sell cathedrals of journalism for spare parts on the promise that maybe the resulting third-tier incarnation of Buzzfeed that will result might temporarily juice returns to owners. Maybe it's possible that the people actually doing the work know better about how to run a successful media company than the Troncs do?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#86

Post by jdross »

p_monk wrote: post #72

For those people suggesting programmers shouldn't unionize, read the op-ed in Financial Times written by Sequoia's Michael Moritz this week to see why programmers should unionize ASAP: https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03... In this article, he suggests Silicon Valley engineers should be worked to the bone like their Chinese counterparts. Some of the things he suggests in the articles: 1) End…

And yet here we are today in Silicon Valley with lavish perks, much higher than average pay in the country for software development, and no unions.

We also have the ability to fire untalented or unpleasant people, and promote especially talented individuals regardless of age or tenure.

You don't need to work at any company that looks like the above. And I don't know of any company that looks like the above.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#87

Post by Karunamon »

sigstoat wrote: post #47
untog wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will quit from any employer that forces all programmers to negotiate as a unit You realise that unions are something imposed on employers, right? They don't like them.

> > I will quit from any employer that forces all programmers to negotiate as a unit > You realise that unions are something imposed on employers, right? They don't like them. and a common first thing for the union to do is to force the employer to only hire union workers.

I thought union shops were illegal in the USA per the NLRA. As I understand it, they can force you to pay a portion of dues (only stuff related directly to bargaining with your specific employer), but that's about it.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#88

Post by oh_sigh »

e1ven wrote: post #7
chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

I've talked to people in the past who associate a union with factory work, and they don't feel like it applies to them. I sometimes point out that every movie star they've ever heard of is a member of a union. I think part of the problem comes from the decline in unions in the US over the last few decades. New industries aren't unionizing, and older unions are being undermined where possible.

Can you even work as an actor in Hollywood without being part of the SAG?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#89

Post by Avshalom »

Karunamon wrote: post #79
Avshalom wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>compensation should be based purely on your individual skills First: Profit seeking organizations don't care about skill they care: about wait for it... profit which is the money you add vs the money you cost, which may be completely divorced from skill. Second: Literally nobody can accurately measure a specific individuals contribution, through skill or otherwise.

Well... you can try, to varying degrees of success. Commits, tickets, MTTR, sLOC. Not that any of those things can't be gamed if the culture demands it

%s/can't/won't/

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#90

Post by Retric »

SEJeff wrote: post #63
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in a seller's market unions will still provide you with leverage you couldn't get otherwise. Unions aren't only so the dispossessed can bargain for more, they're so any group can bargain for more. The one example I always give is of my mom starting out working in the 70's. Her employer was not unionized but had several unionized competitors in the city. Because her employer didn't want to bother with union negot…

I find there are more than enough people that want me (as a software engineer with 10+ years of low level linux / unix experience) and wish me to be very happy. If I ever was forced to join a union, I'd quit on the spot and go find somewhere else to work. I worked for Comair (small airline owned by Delta) during a stewardess strike, which ultimately caused the company to sell planes and eventually go out of business.…

You are likely confusing cause and effect. Comair was having issues before the union got involved. The union simply made the companies failure more obvious.
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