Live data from Hacker News

What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

time.com

81–90 of 177 posts

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#81
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Hospital Association tracks uncompensated care (bad debt and forgiven bills): https://www.aha.org/system/files/2018-01/2017-uncompensated-... It's around $40 billion per year in recent years (for all US hospitals). With hospital spending around $1 trillion, it's 4 or 5% across the industry. There are of course individual hospitals that face higher costs.

Thanks. I must have remembered it wrong. Even with a variance, 25% seems way to high.

Could be related to costs vs charges.

Would still be lots of net income though (for the uncompensated care to represent a larger fraction of total costs).

Could also be including Medicare and Medicaid (which the numbers in that pdf explicitly exclude). They pay, but not always enough to cover the cost of care delivered.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#82

I've been wondering for a while now why health insurance companies exist at all. They introduce a massive bureaucracy and massive costs and provide very little value. They evolved from a reasonable idea into a monster that just drains our system and do not provide enough value to justify their existence in my opinion.

I've been wondering for a while now why health insurance companies exist at all.

My understanding is that benefits like healthcare were a means to attract employees by increasing their compensation without giving them cash per se. I don't know all the one and outs, but that is my understanding of the actual origin. Of course, like anything, it then evolved.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#83

I've been wondering for a while now why health insurance companies exist at all. They introduce a massive bureaucracy and massive costs and provide very little value. They evolved from a reasonable idea into a monster that just drains our system and do not provide enough value to justify their existence in my opinion.

> They introduce a massive bureaucracy and massive costs and provide very little value.

I very much disagree. When I didn't have medical insurance, doctors charged me twice what they charged the insurance companies. Insurance companies have a vested interest in reducing the costs of medical care, while doctors have a vested interest in increasing them. Screwing patients out of payments is not an aligned business model, but it only becomes worse when you don't have someone there fighting to reduce costs on your behalf, willing and knowledgeable enough to know when a medical test is superfluous, or over-priced.

Doctors are still prescribing name-brand drugs when equivalent generics are available. That's some really basic stuff that we're still struggling with. Forget it when a doctor asks for a test that you don't even know enough about to say what it does, let alone if you're getting fleeced for money. Insurance companies get to be the bad guy in the middle who both doctors and patients can blame for not paying for things the patient shouldn't have to pay for in the first place.

But remove that stop-gap and you're relying on the blind trust of the doctor to do the work of appropriately minimizing costs for patients in the face business pressure to do otherwise. And if there's anything I know about human nature, is that we're capable of doing what's best for us, while honestly and truly thinking that isn't the true motivation. I've had mechanics try to sell me on nonsense that more knowledgeable friends of mine recognized as a scam. You don't want that when it comes to what is already one of the biggest expenses in a person's life.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#84

I've been wondering for a while now why health insurance companies exist at all. They introduce a massive bureaucracy and massive costs and provide very little value. They evolved from a reasonable idea into a monster that just drains our system and do not provide enough value to justify their existence in my opinion.

And yet, health insurance companies have very low profit margins, the lowest amongst the insurance companies. So who is getting all the money?

The high health care cost is due to a lot of unnecessary procedures being performed. This can happen in two ways.

First, there are a lot of tests and procedures ordered by doctors that only have some, but very small, benefits for the patients [0]. Doctors are incentivized to do this because each procedure has a set price (negotiated with insurance companies and Medicare / Medicaid) and the only way to get more revenue is to perform more procedures.

Second, patients themselves order a lot of procedures out of fear. Arguably, they can be better off without these procedures. A prime example is end-of-life care, where patients and families often want to "do everything possible" even if those intrusive medical procedures bring nothing but a few weeks of miserable living [1]. Those end-of-life procedures are extremely expensive while having questionable benefits in terms of bringing a "happy" life rather than just a longer life [2].

[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unnecessary-tests...

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/03/05/286126451/livi...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Being-Mortal-Illness-Medicine-Matters...

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#85

My local mechanic is required by law to tell me how much something is going to cost me before they start work. Why is my doctor not held to the same standard. Ever tried calling a provider to find out how much something is going to cost? Sounds like the medical industry had better lobbyists.

Odds are there is a State Law on point that requires a similar disclosure of estimates on medical services. Take Florida Statute 581.026, titled Florida Patient’s Bill of Rights and Responsibilities Subsection (4)(c)(5) reads: a health care provider or a health care facility shall, upon request, furnish a person, before the provision of medical services, a reasonable estimate of charges for such service. In one case…

Discharged unto whom, thats the question.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#86

My local mechanic is required by law to tell me how much something is going to cost me before they start work. Why is my doctor not held to the same standard. Ever tried calling a provider to find out how much something is going to cost? Sounds like the medical industry had better lobbyists.

In a sane world, this would be the free market solution being pushed by the supposedly free market crusading Republicans. Seems like the obvious market-oriented approach to bring down costs: tell people what the costs are!

Instead, the only plan Republicans can come up with is kick more people off their insurance, and don't change anything else.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the cost is unknown until treatment is over. Also, funny comparison, try to make it with software engineering.

> Because the cost is unknown until treatment is over. If you held a mechanic to the same standard, they "wouldn't know the cost" either. Maybe the doctor's office doesn't know your out-of-pocket cost, but they generally know (within a reasonable rage) how much they will bill the insurance company for. Perhaps an underlying problem is that a health insurance-medical pratcice contract prevents the medical practice fro…

> Maybe the doctor's office doesn't know your out-of-pocket cost, but they generally know (within a reasonable rage) how much they will bill the insurance company for

We don't know either. In fact you have to build infrastructure just to know estimates, which will be cleared months later, and a result might be less or more price. It is not a transparent system for the provider either, specially when you are a small one.

> In the case that the nurse/doctor/surgeon decides to change the prognosis/prescription during the visit, there are provisions for that type of action with auto mechanics, too.

I honestly think the problem is fee-as-service, where you have to make very complex calculations based on how each thing is claimed. It would be very different if work was provided per-hour basis, or even per-result (complex, but market is leaning towards that right now).

Figure a software engineer consultant charging differently per language, platform, stack version, LOC, cost of materials etc each time he works an hour. IF you are an engineer try to picture how that works.

1- You diagnose a problem to solve

2- You look into a list of 70k items to look for the corresponding code to that problem (C10.023 Turn iterative code to recursion)

3- You now write what you are going to do to solve it

4- Now you have to pick a billing code (CPT code 94102 -> Iterative on GC language to functional programming language ). You estimate 94102 will pay 50$, but are tempted to put 94103 which will pay 75$, from Iteractive non GC, because actually your custom language settings have GC turned off, but are unsure if the insurance company will believe or care

5- The client asks you how much will charge, considering he is personally liable for 20% of it because the actual client doesn't re-imburse everything.

That was a single visit. Doctors get 12-16 a day.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the cost is unknown until treatment is over. Also, funny comparison, try to make it with software engineering.

> Because the cost is unknown until treatment is over. If you held a mechanic to the same standard, they "wouldn't know the cost" either. Maybe the doctor's office doesn't know your out-of-pocket cost, but they generally know (within a reasonable rage) how much they will bill the insurance company for. Perhaps an underlying problem is that a health insurance-medical pratcice contract prevents the medical practice fro…

[deleted]

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My local mechanic is required by law to tell me how much something is going to cost me before they start work. Why is my doctor not held to the same standard. Ever tried calling a provider to find out how much something is going to cost? Does that include a situation where say, when emptying out the oil, the nut over the drain breaks off which necessitates changing the oil sump, except they then discover the engine…

I'll let an ex-mechanic answer: me. In that situation the service writer (my go between me and the customer) calls the customer and tells them what is needed. If they don't want to do it, button it up and send them on their way. In your made-up example, there are fixes for a stripped drain plug that don't require dropping the oil pan. If it weren't for Jiffy Lube (who, more than once, stripped it before it got to me)…

But the heart surgery example is the exception.

Many medical procedures and therapies have very predictable costs and outcomes. And have checkpoints to re-evaluate whether to proceed further.

And accountants and could probably also price in the cost of the occasional problematic case and include a buffer in the standard price to account for it.

There are plenty of straight forward ways to provide prices for the vast majority of medical procedures, if the proper incentives were in place.

Re: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash (2017)

#90
post #57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem really isn't the doctors but the structure of insurance and how people treat health care and health insurance similarly. The worst part is that high costs aren't directly the fault of insurance companies but of government having driven the need for insurance. Health care used to be all cash, and people carried catastrophic health insurance policies only. We are moving back towards that. This isn't stati…

> Here's one example. A (probably not domesticated) cat scratched someone. They went to get shots. Waited a couple of hours and got the shot. Bill in the mail for about $8k. Somehow, I really doubt Humana paid their 80% which is $6,400 but of course the patient has to pay the 20%. I suspect what is happening is that Humana pays close to $0 and the patient picks up the whole tab of $1,600. I totally get your point, bu…

> I totally get your point, but is that real example?

Yes, it actually happened. Overland Park, Kansas around July 2013 if I remember correctly. Also no fever. More like rabies and tetanus shots from what I heard.

What if we could force all hospitals to disclose all financial transactions publicly? Would that help?

Post reply on HN