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Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

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Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#81

Post by Diederich »

crdb wrote: post #26
jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

Funny how these things work... I've lived in Singapore for close to 7 years, have permanent residence, and it is when I travel to the US that I feel slightly uncomfortable. It starts with the immigration agent who sometimes feels the need to ask me questions for 20 minutes as if I were a criminal, there's the part where they get to look through all your social media accounts and hold you indefinitely, and then there'…

> there's the part where they get to look through all your social media accounts and hold you indefinitely

Wow, so I've been hearing chatter about that for a while now, but I had no idea of how common it was.

I would like to ask you for some clarifications if you don't mind.

Do you think that such social media snooping as you described is fairly common? Do you think you might be in some classification of people that make it more likely? What do you think would happen if you refused? What do you think would happen if you legitimately deleted all of your social media accounts, thus making it impossible to comply?

Thank you kindly.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#82

Post by Jotra7 »

Simon_says wrote: post #56
kelnos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scared people are nearly the worst kinds of people you want making policy decisions. If you can establish statistical significance that no cameras -> cameras (actual causality, not mere correlation) causes a drop in (public) robery-related homicide, and a majority of people believe that drop to be significant enough to warrant the loss of privacy, then sure, you put up cameras. You don't do it because a few people go…

The reason to have citizens own guns is so the population can't be bullied by a totalitarian state, whether foreign or domestic. Guns democratize the use of violence. Sure, militaries can nuke cities, but only if they want to rule over a sheet of glass. Tanks and air superiority can win battles, but they can't stop the occupied population from assembling. To subjugate a populace, to keep them under your boot without…

You know what the US government thinks of your gun? https://www.military.com/equipment/mq-9-reaper

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#83

Post by soundwave106 »

kbart wrote: post #38
Animats wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, law enforcement is split among too many organizations to implement a Big Brother system competently. Every little police department has their own system, and private sector systems aren't integrated with government systems. Look at the mess in DC - their camera system was taken over by a botnet. Not even to use the camera data, just to mooch network resources. There's an business opportunity here. There's…

"In the US, law enforcement is split among too many organizations to implement a Big Brother system competently." NSA begs your pardon..

As bad the NSA's current data collection activities are, I don't think it compares to China's Big Brother.

I seriously doubt in China, for instance, that the EFF that highlighted much of the NSA's surveillance activities would even be allowed to exist.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#84

Post by floatboth »

fortythirteen wrote: post #73
jackyinger wrote: post #4

The same thing is happening in the US. The difference is that the authorities here use much more subtle methods so it doesn’t appear pervasive. It is known that use and abuse of stingrays is rife in our cities and gag orders allow even wider silent collection of data we give up willingly to tech companies because we can’t see what’s done with it.

> The same thing is happening in the US. Apologist nonsense. Have any of your neighbors been sent to reeducation camps? Statements like this minimize the plight of these people. Are authorities overstepping the bounds of the fourth amendment? Yes, and we should continue to fight them every step of the way. But we are still the country with the highest level of individual liberty in the whole world.

Wasn't New Zealand the country with the highest level of liberty?

Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time…

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#85

Post by _9rq6 »

Simon_says wrote: post #56
kelnos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scared people are nearly the worst kinds of people you want making policy decisions. If you can establish statistical significance that no cameras -> cameras (actual causality, not mere correlation) causes a drop in (public) robery-related homicide, and a majority of people believe that drop to be significant enough to warrant the loss of privacy, then sure, you put up cameras. You don't do it because a few people go…

The reason to have citizens own guns is so the population can't be bullied by a totalitarian state, whether foreign or domestic. Guns democratize the use of violence. Sure, militaries can nuke cities, but only if they want to rule over a sheet of glass. Tanks and air superiority can win battles, but they can't stop the occupied population from assembling. To subjugate a populace, to keep them under your boot without…

I agree with your thoughts on this. In feudal India, landlords oppressed the common peasants out of which local Naxalism was formed. Today, these guys are effective and in many ways protect local forests and tribals depended on it through guns from local communities with political and economic power.

I wouldn't say that's good but it is reality.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#86

Post by jruthers »

I'd really like to read more Chinese-from-China views on this kind of article.

Although the content of the article scares me personally, it would be interesting to have more of a discourse about more plausible reasons why this kind of surveillance is "good" from a genuine different perspective. One mistake the Chinese govt makes is never explaining themselves in a plausible way so it always comes across as Orwellian. Further, because no Chinese national is supposed to acknowledge the govt power, most nationals can't comment on it without getting themselves or their family in serious trouble.

I have a (non-Chinese-from-China) friend who works most of the year in China and he explained the surveillance state as "well, if you've got a nation of more than a billion people and a huge range of wealth levels and, culturally, you value stability of the nation more than individual liberty, yeah, you're going to go to extremes on security and surveillance. It's all about ensuring stability and adherence to 'normal' behavior. Yeah it's creepy but it's _safe_ if you stay in line."

I'm not saying I agree with the exchange of individual liberty vs surveillance but it would be refreshing to read more plausible takes on the "China has it right" viewpoint.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#87

Post by neaden »

justicezyx wrote: post #74

Did you know how many people are killed each year in Xinjiang? Because of what western media called "understandable opposition from oppressed descendants of the CCP", where the killed are all just innocent people? OK tell me, what the hell the local government should do to stop the terrorism attack?!

Allow more autonomy in traditionally autonomous regions. Allow the free practice of religion including fasting during ramadan: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/china-bans-ramadan-fas... Take more input from citizens who live there and allow them to have a stake in the governing proccess that includes future changes.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#88

Post by nova22033 »

crdb wrote: post #26
jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

Funny how these things work... I've lived in Singapore for close to 7 years, have permanent residence, and it is when I travel to the US that I feel slightly uncomfortable. It starts with the immigration agent who sometimes feels the need to ask me questions for 20 minutes as if I were a criminal, there's the part where they get to look through all your social media accounts and hold you indefinitely, and then there'…

> ask me questions for 20 minutes as if I were a criminal,

Immigration agents aren't the most polite people in the world but how does the immigration agent know you are not a criminal? It's his job to figure that out without holding up the line.

>the thought of a traffic stop by a bored cop "degenerating"

Did that happen to you or is that something you'd imagine happening to you? Most encounters with the police for traffic violations are professional and dare I say courteous.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#89

Post by [deleted] »

floatboth wrote: post #84
fortythirteen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same thing is happening in the US. Apologist nonsense. Have any of your neighbors been sent to reeducation camps? Statements like this minimize the plight of these people. Are authorities overstepping the bounds of the fourth amendment? Yes, and we should continue to fight them every step of the way. But we are still the country with the highest level of individual liberty in the whole world.

Wasn't New Zealand the country with the highest level of liberty? Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time…

[deleted]

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#90

Post by nova22033 »

zipwitch wrote: post #62
jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

I also live in the US. I think your feeling is just that. Two of my neighbors have internet-connected surveillance cameras around their homes. There are cameras at most street lights. The police have cameras in their cars, including ones that scan license plates automatically. I live near a school, which is festooned with cameras (and has a constant police presence, too, with their car and body cameras). The stores I…

From the article

>The faces and ID cards of Xinjiang residents are scanned. >Near the Xinjiang University campus in Urumqi, police sat at a wooden table recently, ordering some people walking by to hand over their phones.

Yeah...life in the US is exactly like that..

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