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Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

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Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#81

Post by zer00eyz »

cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

> This is called an overbuild and is rather wasteful given the capex involved.

Wasn't the original phone system vastly over built and that is the reason that things like DSL were possible without having to run new wiring in many homes?

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#82

Post by noncoml »

Forget about Net-Neutrality, it's gone, it's a dead horse. Let's see some competition.

I cannot believe that I live in the middle of the infamous Silicon Valley and only have a single choice when it comes to fast broadband, and that one goes down every other month for 3-8 hours.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#83

Post by walshemj »

s73ver_ wrote: post #80
ruffrey wrote: post #57

The real solution to the problem, as I see it, is not even Net Neutrality (though I strongly support Net Neutrality). The solution is to break the monopolistic stranglehold on last-mile internet service. If it were possible to have competition in the last-mile ISP space, then consumers could vote with their wallets and choose those ISPs who supported Net Neutrality. An alternate partial solution would be to force com…

Neither one of those is a true solution. For one, we currently do not live in a climate where competition is happening. Every NN supporter would love for that to happen, but for now it's not. Second, not every place can support competing ISPs. Do the people who live in the inner city or out in rural areas not deserve a neutral net?

Local loop unbundling as in the UK does.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#84

Post by rabboRubble »

danjoc wrote: post #31

The current NN repeal is working out exactly the way Pai said it would. As he cited, the problem is lack of competition. The solution is competition. All the discussion happening today is about how to start an ISP to prevent cable monopolies abusing their position. The repeal is working exactly the way Pai said it would. It is encouraging new ISP entrants. Startup ISPs are the answer. NN supporters still don't realiz…

Until the line infrastructure is no longer owned by the monopolistic ISP / cable companies, talking about competition is all pie in the sky.

The problem is a portion of the US has no good network infrastructure. Another significant portion of the US has only 1 provider servicing them with decent internet connectivity.

A new market entrant will need years to dig and install adequate coverage for even urban US locations. Meanwhile, the US consumer will suffer shit service and outright market manipulation.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#85

Post by rconti »

noncoml wrote: post #82

Forget about Net-Neutrality, it's gone, it's a dead horse. Let's see some competition. I cannot believe that I live in the middle of the infamous Silicon Valley and only have a single choice when it comes to fast broadband, and that one goes down every other month for 3-8 hours.

I've got Comcast gigabit, in San Mateo county.

I took the time today to inquire (again) with Wave/Astound, Sonic, AT&T about FTTH.

AT&T gave me the worst rep humanly possible. I spent 20mins on the phone with her for her to still utterly misunderstand my question, as she was apparently unable to understand or speak english. I already knew Gigapower was not available, I just want SOMEONE to tell me when they plan to offer service at my house, less than a mile from the Redwood City / Spring St CO. No luck.

Sonic did the usual "maybe if you sign up for DSL and you talk all of your friends and neighbors into signing up, we'll vaguely consider bringing FTTH in 2050".

Wave actually had me enter my info and said someone would check my neighborhood (!?) and get back to me within a couple of days.

I'd love to pay, whatever, $1000 to get someone to bring some FTTH here and subsequently make it available to neighbors, improve their local service offerings, etc.

We'll see.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#86

Post by ardit33 »

cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

You must be young?

I remember a time when you couldn't text to other carrier, while Europe had it since the 90s.

I remember how your carrier would not let you use facetime/skype etc....

Anyway, you are paying for access to internet and you should have it.

This is akin to letting a private entity building a private highway on a public ground, and the owner of the highway can say: Only Audis and BMWs are allowed here...

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#87

Post by myrandomcomment »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #22

The inter-state commerce clause allows Federal Law to preempt state law in this case. Congress has imbued the FCC with the power to regulate(see Chevron v EPA) exactly this. States have no reserved power to regulate the behavior of telecoms.

Well that is not really true depending on if the state has ever regulated something in the past. For example cars used to come with CA emissions standard as an item because CA regulated air quality before the federal government. It is not in cache right now but I believe they way it came down was if the state has regulated in the past and the state rules are stronger then the federal then the state wins.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#88

Post by jayess »

cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

So far today I've learned that a two year old policy being repealed is anti-gay, will stop women from getting abortions, will stop the black lives matter movement from speaking freely, and will prevent the #metoo movement from growing. Yes, all because the internet before 2015 was completely censored and prevented free speech.

If anything, I've seen a significant rise in censorship since NN was passed.

The hyperbole today is just off the charts sad.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#89

Post by AFNobody »

cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

> I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight.

So when you say "it was only introduced in 2015", what you really mean is "it was a heavily disputed situation for 20 years in with multiple court cases being won and lost by ISPs".

So yeah, this is the first time the regulatory framework is basically _gone_ even if it wasn't "Title II".

1996 Telecommunication Act: It was a legal gray area, particularly given dial up / dsl over telephone lines.

2002: FCC exempts NCTA by declaring it an information service, not telecommunications.

2005: NCTA wins at the Supreme Court

Open Internet Principles: 2005-2010 (i.e. Threatening to regulate)

Open Internet Order: 2010-2015 (Regulating, legally overturned)

Regulatory framework repealed today: 2015-2017

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#90

Post by cletus »

zer00eyz wrote: post #81
cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

> This is called an overbuild and is rather wasteful given the capex involved. Wasn't the original phone system vastly over built and that is the reason that things like DSL were possible without having to run new wiring in many homes?

An overbuild in this context would be a whole separate network, which the US typically has in most places, namely the phone network and a cable provider. Nowadays people tend to exclude the phone network from discussions of broadband as ADSL speeds are inferior to cable (let alone fiber).

Phone lines had a filter on them to only pass through voice range frequencies. It's why you could hear the sounds made by a modem (or a fax for that matter). These were simply working around the filter.

xDSL was a result of removing that filter. Or, rather, moving it into the customer premises so instead of 2-3kHz, the copper line could support frequencies into the MHz range.

ADSL has a speed limit that follows an inverse square law to the distance the line travels to the exchange. Under ~1km ADSL2+ can get 20+ Mbps. At about 6km ADSL/ADSL2/ADSL2+ all cap out at about ~1.5Mbps and much beyond that it doesn't work at all.

4-5km is a typical average distance for a phone line, putting the max speed in the 5-8Mbps range. Pretty good for the early 2000s. Not so great now.

There are various workarounds for this, most notably reducing the copper distance. In Australia, the NBN (in part) uses FttN (fiber to the node) so Exchange -> fiber -> Node -> copper -> Customer. Limit the copper distance to 1.5km and put VDSL2 on it and you can get closer to 100Mbps.

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