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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#81

Post by throwaway43434 »

Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

The article is much more mischievous than that.

The reasoning here is that 'honor system' is something that can't be extricated from these societies; that it is somehow a cultural (which is an epithet for racial) invariant. It's a pity that such BS-ery forms the basis for many areas of studies, and proliferates in the editorial pages of major newspapers.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#82

Post by skrebbel »

throwaway43434 wrote: post #81
Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

The article is much more mischievous than that. The reasoning here is that 'honor system' is something that can't be extricated from these societies; that it is somehow a cultural (which is an epithet for racial) invariant. It's a pity that such BS-ery forms the basis for many areas of studies, and proliferates in the editorial pages of major newspapers.

> cultural (which is an epithet for racial)

I think you make that jump too fast. I'm Dutch, and I know people of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds whose culture is closer to "Dutch culture" than to any other. I also know some people of the same ethnic backgrounds whose culture is much closer to that of the country of origin. I really mean culture here - the way people behave at home, at the dinner table. How they interact with society.

I suspect this is even stronger the case in America/Canada - My impression is that for all their differences, Caucasian and African Americans on the coasts are culturally closer to one another than to other groups in the world.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#84

Post by interfixus »

leohutson wrote: post #73
interfixus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's tautological to say that as by definition 1850s white Americans culture is extremely distasteful to a modern HN commenter Which definition would that be?

I can't respond to your other question, but the particular value we were discussing was this: > For instance, by the standard of the general wellbeing of African Americans, it's manifestly obvious that modern American culture is superior to American culture of the 1850s. Shouldn't really be controversial, but America is going through a regression right now so who knows..

Being Scandinavian, I do not really partake of whichever American regressions you may be thinking of.

I most certainly admire and find inspirational a lot of the values that built the US from the ground up. Hard work, frugality, dedication, diligence, and self-reliance, to name a few of the qualities that not least Northern Europeans brought to the expanding frontier.

Nor did they particularly hold with the slavery ways of the South.

Also, you may recall, there was a war fought over that issue.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#85

Post by [deleted] »

linkregister wrote: post #46
Nomentatus wrote: post #35

It's just not historically true that "northern European culture has been relatively free of the thar mentality." We weren't magically spared these traits. In fact few hundred years ago duels were the mainstay of the official justice system in England. These duels were, literally, trials. I wish I knew more about how we got away from all that.

I think that prosperity through the pursuit of opportunity leads to such changes. The author derides the continent of Africa, yet ignores enormous economic and public health improvement among most countries there in the last 30 years. Attitudes and “honor” culture have changed as well; nowadays commerce and transactions are the norm in cities, rather than violence based.

[deleted]

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#86

Post by paulajohnson »

throwaway43434 wrote: post #81
Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

The article is much more mischievous than that. The reasoning here is that 'honor system' is something that can't be extricated from these societies; that it is somehow a cultural (which is an epithet for racial) invariant. It's a pity that such BS-ery forms the basis for many areas of studies, and proliferates in the editorial pages of major newspapers.

I think you are erecting a straw man here. The article

1: identifies a set of social norms which it names "thar".

2: Asserts that these norms tend to occur together (i.e. a society in which individuals primary allegience is to a family or clan is likely to find it acceptable to kill in vengance and be paranoid about female sexuality)

3: Argues that these social norms are generated by poverty, and simultaneously likely to perpetuate poverty, thereby creating a vicious circle.

4: Considers the possibility that our society could develop a similar culture in the future.

You claim that the author believes that this is something that cannot be extricated from the societies that practice it, but I cannot see such a claim in the text. In fact the writers concern about the possible descent of western societies into thar would seem to put the lie to your claim: if a society can descend into thar then it can also climb out of it.

If you say that all "cultural" critique is actually racism in disguise then you make it impossible to consider any aspect of how a culture might affect the prosperity and well-being of its members. This can only be justified if you believe that culture has no impact on prosperity and well-being. If it does have an impact then it becomes necessary to consider which cultural norms promote prosperity and well-being and to criticise those that prevent it.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#87

Post by justinpombrio »

baybal2 wrote: post #56
Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

I read it, and think it is a so so writing. The author piles too many things together. martythemaniak gets more of what it is to it. There are no such thing as an honour based society, and the author is imagining things. Popular explanation: what seems as an "honour" things to people in the west are often just egregious displays of social status. It is hard for Americans to naturally arrive to the way of thought of t…

You've listed a few things as not being honor, that I would have called honor. Could you say what you do mean by honor?

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#89

Post by DubiousPusher »

c3534l wrote: post #62

I'm not sure why the author lumps together so many of the attributes he does, and when he does acknowledge exceptions, rather than learn from them and understand why they exist, he simply waves his hands an says Japan wasn't honor-bound enough or not in the right way or whatever else. His examples are cherry-picked and similar examples exist in the countries he holds up as exemplars. Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as w…

The weirdest thing was the drive by defense of the Confederate flag. That tipping of the hand was downright parkinsonian.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#90

Post by DubiousPusher »

sooheon wrote: post #53

The author's Japanophilia masquerading as social insight is laughable. His cute anecdote illustrating the self aware remorse of the Japanese is of one doctor who has a shrine in his living room. I wonder if in his extensive travels he's ever visited Yasukuni shrine.

Yes that was strange. My understanding is that the teaching of the war is highly controversial in Japan.
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