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Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

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Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#81

Post by Devilboy »

inferno0069 wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1265662.html We have held that airport screening searches, like the one at issue here, are constitutionally reasonable administrative searches because they are “conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme in furtherance of an administrative purpose, namely, to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft, and thereby to prevent hijackings.” United States…

It seems worth pointing out that you can affect the safety of as many or more people by walking into a skyscraper, stadium, festival, &c., or by walking near train tracks when a train or two is due to come by, a major bridge during rush hour, &c. The searches may be easiest to do for air travel, but the same thing could be done nearly as easily for any tall building.

Don't give them ideas

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#82

Post by _ouxp »

tptacek wrote: post #56
evgen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you should learn the quote first: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Now you just need to prove that the liberties being abrogated are essential and that the security being provided is temporary.

And since the liberty (privacy) that's being abrogated here isn't even mentioned in the Constitution --- and reasonable, experienced Constitutional Law scholars can argue that we aren't guaranteed it --- that's a tough row to hoe.

If it "isn't even mentioned in the Constitution," (and it's not), then it's protected. The U.S. Constitution enumerates the powers of the U.S. Government. A right does not have to be mentioned in the constitution to be a constitutionally protected right by virtue of a lack of authorization for the government to take it away.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#83

Post by tptacek »

_ouxp wrote: post #82
tptacek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since the liberty (privacy) that's being abrogated here isn't even mentioned in the Constitution --- and reasonable, experienced Constitutional Law scholars can argue that we aren't guaranteed it --- that's a tough row to hoe.

If it "isn't even mentioned in the Constitution," (and it's not), then it's protected. The U.S. Constitution enumerates the powers of the U.S. Government. A right does not have to be mentioned in the constitution to be a constitutionally protected right by virtue of a lack of authorization for the government to take it away.

From everything I've read about the "Right To Privacy", starting with Alderman and Kennedy's book in '96 (which got me to start paying attention to what SCOTUS and SCOTUS nominees were saying about privacy as an actual right implied by the 4th amendment), it is very much up for grabs as to whether we have a Constitutionally inviolable right to privacy.

I hope we do! But an argument backstopped on the notion that we do doesn't seem very strong.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#84

Post by tptacek »

die_sekte wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? In Germany: * Can the state police demand that you open a bag for inspection on a train? * Can you be detained at length (for instance, removed to a police station) if you're asked to identify yourself and don't have documentation? * Are the police under any circumstances permitted to randomly stop and search cars? * Can the police check your pockets during a pat-down search for weapons? Each of these i…

In Schengen, you might have to have your identity determined by the police at the police station, so yeah, you can be detained for that. Searches, in Germany, generally demand cause. I have no idea what laws govern searches in Switzerland. The part with citizens vs non-citizens was mainly about borders. The US is known to be incredibly mean to non-citizens, going so far as to require a visum for transit, whereas Sche…

No, the police in the US cannot randomly search you in a train station. The only circumstance in which you can be searched without probable cause without consent in the US is by border security.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#85

Post by starkfist »

die_sekte wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? In Germany: * Can the state police demand that you open a bag for inspection on a train? * Can you be detained at length (for instance, removed to a police station) if you're asked to identify yourself and don't have documentation? * Are the police under any circumstances permitted to randomly stop and search cars? * Can the police check your pockets during a pat-down search for weapons? Each of these i…

In Schengen, you might have to have your identity determined by the police at the police station, so yeah, you can be detained for that. Searches, in Germany, generally demand cause. I have no idea what laws govern searches in Switzerland. The part with citizens vs non-citizens was mainly about borders. The US is known to be incredibly mean to non-citizens, going so far as to require a visum for transit, whereas Sche…

Schengen only requires a transit visum for citizens of a small number of states.

Schengen requires a transit visa for citizens of 140 countries. There's only about 40 countries that don't need transit visas. The USA has visa waiver programs with more than 36 countries, and other similar arrangements with Canada, Mexico and states in the Caribbean.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#86

Post by die_sekte »

tptacek wrote: post #84
die_sekte wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Schengen, you might have to have your identity determined by the police at the police station, so yeah, you can be detained for that. Searches, in Germany, generally demand cause. I have no idea what laws govern searches in Switzerland. The part with citizens vs non-citizens was mainly about borders. The US is known to be incredibly mean to non-citizens, going so far as to require a visum for transit, whereas Sche…

No, the police in the US cannot randomly search you in a train station. The only circumstance in which you can be searched without probable cause without consent in the US is by border security.

It seems that the US police would like to search you at as many locations as possible. In many cases this is not legally possible. However, the German police does not seem to have that attitude, or at least not that extreme. (Remember you are talking to an 18 year old who is not a lawyer.)

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#87

Post by scott_s »

roc wrote: post #73
scott_s wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not too much. It would bother me some , of course. But not enough to take the extra five minutes for the alternative. (It seems you assumed I hadn't thought of the worst case, and then further assumed it would bother me.) I would be embarrassed to walk around naked, of course. But there the embarrassment is mostly from violating social norms. The remaining part is, of course, exposed genitalia. The rest of my body co…

The burden of justification for new security measures should be on the TSA. And they have failed at this. This sort of thing is a gross violation of personal privacy, entirely without cause. That it adds expense and delay for no demonstrable increase in plane security is but adding insult to injury. Hearing people approach security measures with the argument "whatever would you have to hide, citizen?" is the worst pa…

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I personally find this less invasive than the current security measures.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#88

Post by barrkel »

tptacek wrote: post #2

I'm shocked, shocked! that electronic strip searches might be misused by the crack team of professionals at the TSA. This is very simple: (a) call these things what they are: electronic strip searches. (b) refuse to submit to them at the airport. I just did this on a flight from Kansas City. Guess what? Not a big deal. You'll get the same pat-down search you get when you're "randomly selected for additional screening…

That random selection for additional screening was really getting to me until I shaved my beard, and it stopped.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#89

Post by barrkel »

scott_s wrote: post #26
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it bother you to find a name-attributed copy of your body scan in a zip file on Rapidshare? Why do you assume that won't happen? I assume the opposite.

Not too much. It would bother me some , of course. But not enough to take the extra five minutes for the alternative. (It seems you assumed I hadn't thought of the worst case, and then further assumed it would bother me.) I would be embarrassed to walk around naked, of course. But there the embarrassment is mostly from violating social norms. The remaining part is, of course, exposed genitalia. The rest of my body co…

The question you have to ask is not just whether it bothers you, but whether it bothers anyone you care about - and not just "bother", but materially affect them, anything from bullying (think: teenagers at school) to body shame.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#90

Post by Locke1689 »

die_sekte wrote: post #61
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had the experience of observing the frontiers of my civil rights while being searched on the train from Zurich to Rome, I find this notion that things are better in Europe amusing. From what I can tell, the situation Americans find themselves in at the TSA checkpoints is identical to the situation all Europeans find themselves in everywhere . You realize that (contrary to popular opinion) Americans don't even…

As a German I need to have an ID card, but do not need to carry it with me. The same is true for many other EU states. Civil liberties are apparently in decline everywhere, but I would argue that the EU is somewhat better than the US in that regard and that the actual abuse of laws is better in the EU. I think you are slightly overacting. It could be that you as a non-EU-citizen were subjected to harsher standards. M…

May I remind you that the US isn't that nice to non-citizens?

Recent extra-legal actions notwithstanding, the US Constitution applies to everyone in the US equally. Citizen or not.

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